Job Discussion Forums

Aurora BoreEllie · Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 4 Location: UK

Hi all

I'd really appreciate some advice as soon as possible.

I'm hoping to go to Indonesia in January to begin teaching, but I was thinking of visiting friends in Africa first. I'm worried this might affect my chances of getting a job though, as I doubt I'll be able to apply for stuff while I'm in Africa. Does anyone have any advice on this? I'm not rich by any stretch so I'd be worried about running out of money!

I need the advice quite urgently because I have to book my flights this weekend!

Also I've done some investigation in terms of where I'd like to be, and Yogyakarta sounds like the best place. There don't seem to be ANY jobs there though. Am I not looking hard enough or is it really competitive there? Generally speaking, I'd like somewhere that's quite cultural, preferably not really congested, with good links to beaches and site-seeing places.

I know I can't have it all, but any recommendations would be much appreciated!

Finally, like most people on here, I've heard a lot of negative stuff about EF. Can anyone recommend any other bodies to use? The TBI website doesn't seem to be working!

Any information would be really appreciated.

For information, my quals are:

Thank you very much
Ellie

extradross · Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 81

Sorry but you come across as another tourist/traveller type looking to 'fall back on' a bit of teaching to bring in the coin as it were. Why do you think Yogjakarta would be a good location to live/work? Pay is very low, the EF's have a bad rep-and the beaches you seem so interested in are desolate and eerie places encapsulated in myth/legend surrounding the sea...Everywhere is competitive job wise in Indonesia now, has been for last couple of years. Try thinking in terms of vacation periods as times to explore beaches/tourist attractions and when looking for vacancies consider what/who you want to teach and where! I know that Jakarta has an excess of candidates for every position advertised-maybe East Java would be more welcoming job wise for the newcomer....

joe29 · Joined: 16 Dec 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Jakarta

Hi Aurora,

If you have access to e-mail while you're in Africa, you shouldn't have any problems applying for jobs from there. Generally schools which recruit native speakers outside of Indonesia will conduct most of the recruitment process by e-mail and you will probably need to be available for a phone interview at some point.

If you're offered a job, you may also need to be able to get to an Indonesian embassy to sort out your visa application. You also have to give a health declaration when entering Indonesia. One of the questions is whether or not you have recently visited Africa but I don't know if an affirmative answer means you need a particular check-up.

Yogya is certainly a lovely, not overly congested city with a lot of culture and many interesting sights within easy reach, probably more than any other city on Java. Beaches near Yogya are not too good if you're looking for somewhere to swim or do other watersports. Some beaches may be scenic but they're mostly hot, rough and barren with very strong currents that make them unsafe for swimming.

I'm not sure if there are language schools other than EF which employ native speakers. I've met a couple of teachers form EF Yogya who seemed to be very happy with their lives and work in Yogya. Alternatively, with your qualifications, you could contact universities in Yogya and find out about employment opportunities with them.

Yogya is a very popular city which attracts many Westerners, not just tourists. It's a big centre of culture and education and the primary place for foreigners to study Indonesian language and culture. As a result the job market for English teachers in Yogya is likely to be very competitive.

There's a limited choice of English language schools outside of the very big cities. Bandung has both EF and TBI, maybe others, too. It doesn't, however, have as much to offer in terms of culture as Yogya or Solo, and it's become rather congested, especially on weekends. It does have many sights although they're mainly scenery rather than cultural sights, and it's a long way from the sea. Malang is another lovely and quieter city with cultural attractions, many sights to visit nearby and beautiful, safe beaches less than 2 hours away. In terms of jobs you'll probably find that the only employer is EF.

If you have difficulties finding a job in one of the smaller cities, you could consider looking at the outskirts of Jakarta or Surabaya. In places like Depok, Bogor, the far south of Jakarta or parts of Tangerang life is still reasonably quiet and while you're not that close to sights and beaches, being near Jakarta means it's easy to get pretty much anywhere in the country. If you plan to stay in Indonesia for more than a year, you'll probably find it easier to get a job elsewhere in your second year, as employers such as National + schools will require some experience, a face-to-face interview and demo lesson.

I hope this is a little bit useful. Enjoy your travels and good luck with finding a job in Indonesia.

malu · Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 1344 Location: Sunny Java

The only additional requirement if you are coming from sub-Saharan Africa is a yellow fever vaccination certificate.

One to avoid in Jogja is Real English. A couple of very bad reports about them on this forum and elsewhere.

aeh · Joined: 28 Apr 2010 Posts: 23

Extradross - I think there is a significantly high portion of English Language teachers around the world who get into the role as it allows them to see the world, meet new people, experience cultures etc. What's wrong with that? Just because the person likes the beach, doesn't mean they won't be a good teacher. No need to be judgemental.

Aurora BoreEllie · Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 4 Location: UK

Thank you to everyone for your advice so far.

I've been reading these forums for a while & have often felt a little reluctant to post due to the hostility I've seen towards possible backpackers. I'm glad everyone has been so helpful.

Extradross - thank you for your advice re Yogya. It's really helpful to hear some first-hand experience. I don't mean to be rude, but my reasons for going aren't really any of your business. If you disapprove of my post, fair enough; don't reply to it. Indonesia by all accounts is an amazing country. I don't see why I should be condemned for wanting to explore it. Nevertheless I do appreciate the advice you've given.

Thank you very much, the rest of you for being so helpful. I'd like to share some worries I have if that's ok. Basically I've spent 3 years doing a thankless and demanding job, and have finally had enough. I decided to do TEFL because I wanted to do something more rewarding that could offer me a new experience. I am so unhappy in my current situation. I chose Indonesia because I know a lot of people who've been there & they all say it's amazing - plus I know you have to be over 25 to teach so I won't feel like an old lady next to all those 18-21 year olds!

The problem is, I've heard a lot of info which seems to suggest that teachers there are overworked, underpaid, and undervalued. It also seems like most of the schools are in big cities, which are too congested to allow weekend trips to any landmarks / notable places.

I'm sure I must be worrying over nothing because there are so many people who've lived in Indonesia as teachers for years, and seem to love it. But at the same time it'd be awful to work & save so hard to change my career path, only to find my situation hasn't improved.

Sorry to be so glum! If anyone could give me their thoughts I'd be very grateful.

Thanks again everyone.

Ellie

extradross · Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 81

Needs to be said that right now, asia-wide there is a massive influx of newcomers for whom the motivation is to escape the recession which has been eating away at jobs/opportunities at home. I think that any vacancy here now is heavily applied for, even the mighty EF are able to turn people away. All the more reason for the original poster, who has a reasonably impressive set of qualifications, to 'target' not just the geographical area they want to teach but the schools based on the kind of teaching they want to do-and also consider this....what makes them 'stand out' to potential employers above the 25-50 other applicants for the same job? Believe me, Indonesia is going the way of Japan/Taiwan right now-the days of 'rocking up' making a few enquiries and landing a Nat+/language school position in a few days are long gone......considering your preference with regards working location in terms of cultural diversions/ the beach also.....it's a buyers market now!

joe29 · Joined: 16 Dec 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Jakarta

I don't think EFL teachers in Indonesia are generally overworked, underpaid and undervalued but I'm sure some feel they are. For many people who come to work here for the first time this is their first teaching job. If you start a full-time job without any experience, you should probably expect that you may have to work a little harder, at least if you want to do the job well. As you gain experience, it will gradually become easier and the planning part of the job will take less time. You may also spend more time on training in the beginning.

Many new EFL teachers (and enough who are not that new) seem to forget that having a CELTA or similar qualification is not comparable to having a degree in education and extensive teacher training. This, I believe, relates to both feeling overworked and feeling underpaid. The better qualified and better prepared you are for a job, the easier it will be to do the job. With little qualification or preparation it will be more difficult in the beginning and will take longer to become easier.

Regarding pay I don't quite understand how someone whose only qualifications may be a degree in any subject and a CELTA, would expect to be paid as much as someone who has invested in 5 or 6 years of study and possibly a lot of money to become an education professional. Having said that, EFL teachers in Indonesia may not be rich but it's certainly possible to have a good life here. As has been mentioned in other places on this forum, it's largely a matter of lifestyle. If you want to eat western food, drink western drinks, buy genuine branded clothes, travel by taxi and live surrounded by other westerners, your salary in Indonesia wouldn't support your lifestyle. Realistically, few salaries in the UK would allow you to spend your life in restaurants, bars and taxis, so why should they in Indonesia? If you come with an open mind, want to integrate a little more and actually experience Indonesia's cultures and lifestyles rather than just taking a look, an EFL teacher's salary is definitely enough to do that, have a good life and be able to go away for weekends or holidays.

As for feeling undervalued, it's not a feeling I share. I felt undervalued quite regularly working for local authorities in the UK in the past but not as a teacher here. You should be realistic in your expectations of your employer. You can find out what rewards you can expect and if there will be training. If you receive training, it's likely to focus on the basics to help you through your first year of teaching EFL. You need to remember that most first jobs are for a year, occasionally two years, and that many people who come to Indonesia (and other countries) to teach do so for a year out or a different experience rather than wanting to embark on a new career. There are also enough people who come with the intention of staying for longer but find that the culture shock doesn't quite go away, that Indonesia may not be a country they're happy to live in for too long. Bearing that in mind, you should be reasonable in your expectations of how much an employer may invest in you and your development when you're employed on a relatively short-term contract, at least until you want to commit yourself for longer. That's not to say you shouldn't feel valued. If you do your job well, you should, of course, feel valued and receive recognition for what you do. Whether or not you do will depend very much on your DoS / manager etc. I've been very lucky in having had a fantastic DoS who made me feel very valued but I can't expect to have quite such a competent manager again. That doesn't mean I won't feel valued again. People express things in different ways, some clearly, some not so clearly. If you look and listen carefully, you'll probably find some appreciation from most managers. Sadly we can't have everything all the time. I've had great jobs with terrible managers and terrible jobs with great managers but I haven't led an unhappy life as a result of not having everything great all the time.

Finally, you seem very concerned about Indonesian cities being so congested that you can't get out. Admittedly, when I lived in central Jakarta and relied on public transport, it was a bit of a nuisance and getting to the beach or mountains took a long time but I did it because it feels good to spend some time in a beautiful place, even just a day. Now I live in the suburbs and have a bike which makes it much easier. I go to the beach two weekends a month, and sometimes into the mountains or exploring the countryside. Leaving very early in the morning it takes 3 hours to get to a good beach and it's certainly worth the effort. To some extent it's a matter of your own determination whether or not and how often you get out of a city. Many people never leave Jakarta because they're out drinking Friday night and sleep most of Saturday, nothing to do with congestion.

Most jobs are in big cities because that's where most of the people are and they're the only places where people have enough money to join English language courses. If you're flexible enough, living in a big city won't hinder you from doing the things you want to do.

Good luck with everything.

Tudor · Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 339

Joe29 - many thanks for taking the time to post on here. I've been in Indonesia for almost a year now and have experienced the concerns that Ellie mentions and, indeed, still do to a certain extent. Your last post has certainly given me food-for-thought in addressing these concerns in a more rational way than perhaps I have been doing. Ultimately, I don't think Indonesia is the country for me, but hopefully I will spend less time fretting and worrying during the remainder of my time here!

Extradross - stop being such a drama queen! I would have thought that it's a positive thing if jobs are oversubscribed as hopefully it means only the most-qualified and suitable candidates are being offered positions. This means that those who are under-qualified and unsuitable have less chance of getting a job as they may have done in the past. Therefore, this alleged scarcity of jobs should help raise the standards in an industry which (IMHO) needs its standards raising.

Ellie - all the best in your job hunt, I'm sure with your qualifications and attitiude you will be able to find a suitable position in Indonesia.

extradross · Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 81

Errrr-I'm sorry but I'm looking at the employment position from an employees perspective. How is it 'positive' if positions are 'oversubscribed'?

phis · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 250

Well said Joe29!

Tudor · Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 339

extradross...

Firstly, I stated quite clearly in my post why I think it's positive. Try reading it again.

Secondly, if you are 'looking' at this from the perspective of the employees then why was your response to the OP's query about employment opportunities so negative and resentful? If you dislike traveller teachers (or however you wish to label them) so much then surely you'd welcome a shortage of jobs as it prevents these audacious chancers and shysters getting a foot in the ESL door.

Finally, I think you're exaggerating the job situation somewhat. Granted, there probably aren't as many jobs as there once was in Indonesia but my school, for example, always seem to have vacancies and, no, it's not an EF.

Aurora BoreEllie · Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 4 Location: UK

Thank you so much Joe29, that was exactly what I needed to hear: an honest but optimistic reply. And thank you to those of you who echoed what Joe29 said.

Tudor - thank you for your encouragement and I hope you find a country you feel happier in.

I think I could handle the busy nature of Indonesian cities; I travelled in India five years ago (God, that makes me feel old), which I've heard is much more intense than Indonesia. I loved it and certainly could imagine staying there for a long period of time - so I think I'd be fine in Indonesia.

I'm certainly not bothered about being rich; I'd just like to earn enough to avoid scraping pennies together, and to be able to take a couple of weekend trips a couple of times a month, or even once a month. I'm certainly not planning on spending every weekend drunk, or buying fashionable clothes. In fact, I'm hoping to escape that kind of lifestyle. I'm much more interested in the culture than the alcohol / shopping. You're definitely right - it's a matter of lifestyle, and I suppose that's the same wherever you are. I'd like to meet other Westeners and Indonesians. Mostly I'd like to meet people whose company I enjoy and who want to do the same things as me, regardless of nationality.

I think I'm fretting needlessly about the nature of the work itself, as well. The job I have at the moment is exceptionally thankless (e.g. I'm contracted to work 9-5.30pm, but in the last fortnight I worked 9am - 11pm without getting any overtime pay or even a thank you). I think if my situation wasn't so extreme here, I wouldn't be so worried.

Finally, I'm not worried at all about getting a job over there. The repsonses here have convinced me it's not wise to go to Africa first (having been to East Africa before I know internet and phones aren't readily available), so I'll just apply for as many appropriate jobs as I can before I go. A friend of mine recently decided to teach in Taiwan, and within two months he was there. His TEFL was only 20 hours and he had a mediocre English degree from a polytechnic. My TEFL is 120 hours and I have a First Class degree in English, a masters, and a lot of voluntary experience. I'm quite a driven person, and very passionate about the English language. I feel I can put that across well enough for me to at least get a few interviews. But I appreciate extradross was just trying to warn me not to be complacent.

I have one final question: does anyone have any recommendations in terms of locations or schools I should be aiming for, considering the issues I've raised? I would like to avoid Jakarta if possible, and I've heard I should avoid EF Swara, and Real English (as malu said) in Yogya. Can anyone offer me any other advice?

Sorry to on - I feel like I'm really taking advantage of your attention now! I promise I will pass on the goodwill by providing similar encouragement on these forums when I'm in Indonesia myself!

Thank you all again for being so open and helpful.

Ellie Smile

extradross · Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Posts: 81

Tudor-I went back and reread your post before and still don't get it! As I said before, from the potential employees perspective a job market where supply outstrips demand considerably [and that is the situation in Japan right now, maybe becoming so here soon] has several potential negative effects-such as 'long-term' employees not being rehired cos a business finds it easy to hire 'newcomers' at a much lower rate of pay. Increases in salary being checked by the fact that a company has a steady supply of potential teachers. [For example EF Swara- starting salary has stayed the same for last 3 years-while inflation has rocketed!] Your consideration of the nature of ESL employment seems completely 'out of whack' to me... you really believe that a surplus of candidates will mean that only the 'best' are hired thus increasing the standard of the industry? Unfortunately my friend hiring decisions are often made purely on financial grounds.....Granted, I've seen a few rather 'disfunctional' types disappear during the last couple of years-people who were just in it for an easy ride/excuse to stay here/whatever-and if newcomers who are legitimately qualified/experienced have facilitated the exodus of some of these reprobates then fair enough, but I've also seen the capable/qualified and experienced suffer at the shift in the supply/demand-to go back to the original point of this thread I don't think anybody coming here to work can afford to be choosy anymore.

Tudor · Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 339

Some interesting and valid points there extradross. Perhaps it's no surprise that ESL attracts its fair share of reprobates when schools are prepared to penny-pinch in such ways. Personally though, I wouldn't want to work for a school who are prepared to sacrifice experienced staff just to save a few quid, although I guess that's easy to say when I'm fortunate enough to have a stable position with a relatively reputable employer. So no, beggars can't be choosers, but I think it's fair to say that that's the case in many industries across the globe at this time and not just ESL.