Job Discussion Forums

[Serious_Fun]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LH14Ad01.html

[creztor]

It all began a few months ago and it is definitely going to happen. Why? I think there was a survey about the fact that in 10 years time 30% of Universities will be closed in Taiwan due to a lack of enrolments. The DPP was first strongly against it but it makes simple economic sense, what would they do with all those Ph.D holders losing jobs when unis close? Jinmen also just opened it's first university last week (upgraded from a technical college I believe) and I think Jimen serves as a good testing ground for PRC students. Regardless of where the students all end up going, I honestly believe this is good news. More students coming here has to mean slightly higher chances, better than none anyway, that some will enrole in English majors or majors that have basic English requirement classes at university.

[zipper]

I don't see it causing any social and economic problems. Maybe it will mean more Mandarin speakers to practice with? I read one article awhile back that said a few Taiwan Universities and colleges were ditching their national flags so as not to offend their Chinese visitors and students. Now, that could be an issue.

[forest1979]

There's a huge assumption that just because mainland students can obtain visas that this automatically equates to them coming to study in Taiwan. Realistically will this happen? I doubt it, certainly doubt it in the short term. Will it be good? Well, that's a different issue but what needs to be stressed it that it is needed. The DPP's democratization of higher education means anyone with a pulse can find somewhere to take a degree course. Given the declining birth rate Taiwan whether it wants mainland students or not needs them for its enormous number of colleges and universities to feel that they have a future. Without them a serious trimming of the higher education sector will be needed and the weak institutions - of which there are many - will be culled.

Personally I think that if the Chinese want a bog-standard college education there is little need for them to come to Taiwan. After all China has 1000s of colleges and universities, so what advantage is to be gained by going to a run-of-the-mill uni in Taiwan? In addition, many Chinese students look beyond Asia now for there education, as they see an education in English or other languages as advantageous in the job market. I don't really see why a Taiwanese degree undertaken in Mandarin can help them set themselves apart in the job market.

At the end of the day a lot of the criticism of the mainland students derives from DPP sources, ironically the people who have made the need for 'external'/non-Taiwanese students. Importantly, this can be seen at a number of Taiwanese unis who venture now to bring in English-speakers, e.g. through their international college sections. It's a fact of life therefore. Taiwanese higher education cannot survive on Taiwanese students alone. Whilst I have no issue with democratization to give people a chance to study Taiwan has taken it to an extreme. What is it, 90-95% of school leavers go into higher education? Simply ridiculous. Too many institutions, too few students, too much compromising of standards. The DPP for all their good intentions now have a lot to answer for.

[creztor]

I think you'll still see a lot of PRCers coming here. Mainly those who can't afford to go to the USA/AUS/NZ but are looking for an alternative to HK. It most likely won't be the cream of the crop, but is another way for TW to cash in and prop up the unis here. It will definitely be interesting to see how things play out in the coming years.

[forest1979]

I can understand the possible attraction of Hong Kong given classes thee are given in Chinese and English, and their universities being of a high standard - 3 in the world's top 50 according to The Times' university world survey - but Taiwan is a whole different education world. It hardly has classes in English as the norm nor has a plethora of world class educational institutions for students to pop into. I simply can't see an average or below average student spending lots of $s to go to Taiwan in the hope of being competitive in the domestic job market.

[zipper]

According to a recent poll by Taiwan Thinktank:

� 54.3% of Taiwanese support the idea of having Mainland students drop by for a few years to spend money to study here. However, 44% are against it.

� 54% of Taiwanese are against the recognition of Chinese Educational credentials.

� 62.8% said that Mainlanders should not be allowed to work here.

� And a whopping 69% said they were against Mainlanders staying after graduation.

� A huge 81% said Mainlanders should not be allowed to obtain Taiwanese licenses or certificates; and about same % would like to see this control legislated.

� Finally, a staggering 88.1% of Taiwanese favor a mechanism in place to manage Chinese students.

Looks like most folks here are saying come, study, and then get out after you finished.

I guess the Taiwanese population�s view trumps any views here or in the academia. However, how will those in position of power decide? Executive Decrees, anyone?

What�s on the dinner plate is a bill dubbed �three limits and six noes�; which the Ministry of Education proposes to protect the interests of Taiwanese Students. Apparently not out of the interest to keep some Universities opened.

President Ma fully supports Chinese students studying here in Taiwan for political reasons of course. Executive Decrees?

So, the amazing question is: Would any self respecting Chinese student really strive to study in a country that places so many unwelcoming restrictions?

Where is the incentive?

[forest1979]

Hahaha You have to love protectionism: "please come and spend your money but on our terms and in our time according to our rules!"

[Solar Strength]

Yeah, and the Taiwanese Government refused to recognize many foreign EFL teachers' university degrees, particularly those obtained through distance or online study.

How can they do this legally?


Taiwan is the only country in the region that I know of that does not recognize degrees obtained thorugh distance study.

[zipper]

I think that part of it is just ignorance, and maybe the brick and mortar institutions through their Ministry of Education have pressured the government to act that way. Universities and colleges that don't offer online degrees or distance study disparage online degrees, because they pose a threat to their enrollment; perhaps if they offered online degrees, then they could still manage to profit and keep their Phds on the job; it's that they may have to do more sitting.

Maybe it would be a good idea if officials that are against online degrees try taking one for themselves to see that it isn't or is so easy; or take one group that have online degrees and compare them to another group of brick and mortar degree holders by given them the exact same civil service exams; making sure that degree subjects, sex, economic status, age, demographics and etc. are accounted. Then compare the results, and this ought to give an objective view about the effectiveness of online degrees. I am sure that researchers would have to stratify many factors for best statistical results, though.

Online degrees are becoming more popular, and the public�s perception of them is changing from the negative, the unknown to the �Hey, it�s a nice way to get a degree; especially for those that are handicap, have family to manage and who are just socially dysfunctional.� Just kidding about the �socially dysfunctional,� though. Nevertheless, online degrees will become more popular in the future as well; especially as the learning curve increases. They will iron out all those kinks and wrinkles that have in the past blemished the field.

[forest1979]

The MoE for donkeys years has not recognised distance degrees. This is not a new thing neither has there ever been any indication in policy shift. Whilst I agree that it might cause problems at the end of the day it also is a simple means of ensuring a certain minimum standard of education, i.e. you must have spent 66% of any course within the walls of the institution otherwise the MoE wont recognise/accept it. This I can understand given various issues/problems surrounding distance/online degrees, and yes while such degrees at some places are not easy to earn to accept any online degree would, I think, open up Taiwan to a can of worms where anyone with any piece of paper would claim they are able to come to work in the TEFL industry.

But, you know, at the end of the day where it's the KMT or DPP in power the civil service is always slow in responding to general or worldwide trends, like the growing popularity of study without physically being in a classroom. Yet will it affect the MoE? No chance. For the 10 years or so I've been involved in Taiwanese university teaching never has policy altered in regard to distance learning. I doubt too it will change in the next 5 years.