|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
|
 Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:40 pm Post subject: Islam |
 |
|
Islam, it's suffering from a bit of a bad rep at the moment...
Naturally, the cool �western� thing to do is to say �Hey man, it�s not the religion itself that�s the problem � it�s the fanatics and how they interpret it� Islam�s actually a religion of peace and most Muslims are pretty cool�� I�ve had beers with quite a few Muslims, I�ve chatted with Muslim girls and haven�t worried about causing them to be stoned to death. I�ve met plenty of Muslim people who seemed nice enough � this image of a �moderate Islam� seems convincing enough to me, and quite a few others. It would be irrational to have a problem with every Muslim person, simply due to the actions of a few who claim to do so on Islam�s behalf.
The internet really is a fascinating way of researching subjects of interest� The following is a review of some of the coverage Islam gets online - complete with some rather long C&Ps. As a result, this OP is monstrously large - for which I apologise in advance.
Naturally, there are quite a few sites promoting Islam and the discussion of it. I found www.islam-qa.com � a serious 'question and answer' site devoted to helping Muslims (and others) understand more about their religion. The section about women in Islam was fascinating�
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1105&dgn=3]
| Quote: |
Question :
Is there a mention of the equality of women in the qur'an?
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:
This word � equality � which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when the speaker attributes this idea of equality to the Qur�aan and to Islam. One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that �Islam is the religion of equality�. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.
Shaykh Ibn �Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
�Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, they started to ask, what is the difference between male and female?� So they made males and females the same, and then the communists said, �What difference is there between ruler and subject? No one has any authority over anyone else, not even fathers and sons; the father has no authority over his son,� and so on.
...
Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.
No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality. Rather what shows you that this principle is false is the fact that most of what is mentioned in the Qur�aan denies equality, as in the following verses:
�Say: Are those who know equal to those who know not?�
[al-Zumar 39:9]
�Say: Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light?�
[al-Ra�d 13:16]
�Not equal among you are those who spent and fought before the conquering (of Makkah, with those among you who did so later�
[al-Hadeed 57:10]
�Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allaah with their wealth and their live�
[al-Nisa� 4:95]
Not one single letter in the Qur�aan enjoins equality, rather it enjoins justice. You will also find that the word justice is acceptable to people, for I feel that if I am better than this man in terms of knowledge, or wealth, or piety, or in doing good, I would not like for him to be equal to me.
Every man knows that he find it unacceptable if we say that the male is equal to the female.�
Sharh al-�Aqeedah al-Waasitah, 1/180-181
Based on this, Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice.
The Qur�aan commands women to wear clothes that are different from those worn by men, because of the differences in the ways each sex is tempted by the other. The temptation posed by men is less than the temptation posed by women, so the clothes that women should wear are different than the clothes that men wear. It makes no sense to tell women to expose the parts of the body that men are allowed to expose, because of the differences in the temptation posed by a woman�s body and a man�s body � as we shall explain.
Secondly:
There are matters in which men and women are treated differently in Islamic sharee�ah, such as:
1 � Qiwaamah (being in charge of the household)
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
�Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means�
[al-Nisa� 4:34]
Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
�Allaah says �Men are the protectors and maintainers of women� meaning that the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray.
�because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other� i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as was the position of khaleefah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, �No people shall ever prosper who appoint a woman as their ruler.� This was narrated by al-Bukhaari from the hadeeth of �Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Abi Bakrah from his father. The same applies to the position of qaadi (judge), etc.
�and because they spend (to support them) from their means� refers to the mahr and the spending on women�s maintenance that Allaah has enjoined upon men in His Book and in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So a man is inherently better than a woman, and he is superior to her because he spends on her. So it is appropriate that he should be in charge of her, as Allaah says, �but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them� [al-Baqarah 2:228].
�Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn �Abbaas: �Men are the protectors and maintainers of women� means that men are the leaders of women and they should obey them in areas where Allaah has enjoined obedience. Obedience may mean treating his family kindly and protecting his wealth.�
(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/490)
2 � Testimony or bearing witness. The Qur�aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): �And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her�
[al-Baqarah 2:282]
Ibn Katheer said:
Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason, as Muslim narrated in his Saheeh� from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �O women, give in charity and seek forgiveness a great deal, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.� A wise woman among them said, �Why is it, O Messenger of Allaah, that we are the majority of the people of Hell?� He said, �Because you curse too much, and you are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you.� The woman asked: �O Messenger of Allaah, what is wrong with our common sense and our religion?� He said: �Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense, and you spend some nights (and days) in which you do not offer prayer and in the month of Ramadan (during the days) you do not observe fast, that is a failing in religion.�
(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/336)
There may be some women who are wiser than some men, but this is not the usual rule and such women are not in the majority. Sharee�ah is based on what is general and most common. The fact that women are lacking in reason does not mean that they are crazy, rather their reason is often overtaken by their emotions, and this happens to women more often than it happens to men. No one would deny this except one who is arrogant.
3 � A woman inherits half of what a man inherits.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
�Allaah commands you as regards your children�s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females�
[al-Nisa� 4:11]
Al-Qurtubi said:
Because Allaah knows better than they do what is in their best interests, He made the division of inheritance based on differentiation, because He knows what is in their best interests.
Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 5/164
For example, a man is obliged to spend more than a woman, so it is appropriate that he should have a larger share of inheritance than a woman.
4 � Clothing:
A woman�s �awrah includes her entire body. The least that can be said is that she should not uncover anything except her face and hands, and it was said that she should not even uncover that.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
�O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful�
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]
The �awrah of a man is the area from the navel to the knees.
It was said to �Abd-Allaah ibn Ja�far ibn Abi Taalib, �Tell us what you heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and what you saw of him, and do not tell us about anyone else, even if he was trustworthy.� He said, �I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, �The area between the navel and the knee is �awrah.��
Narrated by al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (6418); classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami�, 5583.
Other examples include the following, which is not a comprehensive list. There are other differences between the sexes, including the following:
� A man can marry four women, but a woman can only have one husband.
� A man has the right to issue a divorce and it is valid if he does so, but a woman does not have the right to issue a divorce.
� A man may marry a woman from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), but a Muslim woman may not marry anyone but a Muslim.
� A man may travel without his wife or any of his mahrams, but a woman may not travel unless she is accompanied by a mahram.
� Prayer in the mosque is obligatory for men, but not for women; a woman�s prayer in her house is more beloved to Allaah.
� A woman may wear silk and gold, but a man must not wear them.
Everything that we have mentioned is based on the difference between men and women, because the male is not like the female. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
�And the male is not like the female�
[Aal �Imraan 3:36]
The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle. And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.
With regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation.
Jihad is obligatory for men, but jihad in the sense of fighting is not obligatory for women. This is the mercy of Allaah towards them, and consideration for their nature.
In conclusion we may say that the rulings for men are not like the rulings for women.
...
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) |
Are these views representative of all Muslims? I posted a question to that effect on the The Islam Online Discussion Forum. So far two muslim women have denied that such things are Islamic specifcally.
Here the western mind reaches a rather tricky situation. Criticising a religion is bad, but so too is blatant sexism. Can we be tolerant of others� beliefs, even when they so wildly contradict ours?
www.faithfreedom.org is an interesting site run by a Mr. Ali Sina, an Iranian ex-Muslim devoted to the cause of convincing other Muslims to stray away from their faith towards atheism. From the sound of things, he angers more followers of Islam than he converts � but you have to admire his bravery. Mr. Sina and his supporters make a fairly convincing case demonizing Islamic ideology. The Qu�ran, he argues, is contradictory. Some parts pledge peace to all on earth, others seem to explicitly state that non-Muslims are only good for raping and killing. Naturally, those with an agenda against Islam tend to state the latter verses of the Qu�ran, those who defend it tend to refer to the former.
Ali Sina�s view is that Mohammed was a scoundrel, at the start he promoted Islam as a peaceful idea to gain followers, then once Islam started carrying some weight around he began to get a bit tougher on the infidels.
An often stated argument by �anti-muslims� is that of �Ayesha�, one of the Prophet Mohammed�s brides. (Read all about it at http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm). The reason it�s interesting is that Ayesha was 6 years old when Mohammed married her � and 9 years old when their marriage was consummated. This grates against the conscience of quite a few in today�s contemporary world � the concept of a religion whose principal founder was a pedophile doesn�t sit well.
'Muslims Online' does not shy away from the issue of Ayesha's age arguing that
| Quote: |
| Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty. This was the case in Biblical times, as we will discuss below, and is still used to determine the age of marriage in what the culturally arrogant West calls "primitive societies" throughout the world. As the ahadith about 'Aishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period). Puberty as a biological sign shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this? Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet's Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus(P) grew up in). The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time a marriage can be consummated is on the onset sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty. Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today: it is certainly not something that Islam invented. However, widespread opposition to such a Divinely revealed and accepted historical norm is certainly something that is relatively new. |
www.memri.org ('The Middle Eastern Media Research Institute') is simple and unassuming in appearance. It claims to want to �Bridge the gap� between the West and the Middle East, but its media content does seem a little biased. The following is an extract from a Egyptian TV show � this and other videos are here.
| Quote: |
The Muslim Woman Magazine: Hosted by Doaa 'Amer
(Aired from Egypt)
Host: Our report today will be a little different, because our guest is a girl, a Muslim girl, but a true Muslim. Allah willing, may our God give us the strength to educate our children the same way, so that the next generation will turn out to be true Muslims who understand that they are Muslims and know who their enemies are. This girl will introduce herself immediately. She is the daughter of my sister in faith, and of the artist Wagdi Al-Arabi . Her name is Basmallah and we will ask her as well.
Questions and Answers
Host: Peace be upon you. Allah's mercy and blessing upon you. What's your name?
Basmallah: Basmallah.
Host: Basmallah, how old are you?
Basmallah: Three and a half.
Host: Are you a Muslim?
Basmallah: Yes.
Host: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?
Basmallah: Yes.
Host: Do you like them?
Basmallah: No.
Host: Why don't you like them?
Basmallah: Because...
Host: Because they are what?
Basmallah: They're apes and pigs.
Host: Because they're apes and pigs? Who said they are so?
Basmallah: Our God.
Host: Where did he say this?
Basmallah: In the Koran.
Host: Right, he said that about them in the Koran. - Okay, Basmallah, what are the Jews doing?
Basmallah: The Pepsi company.
Host: You also know about the boycott, Basmallah? Did they love our master Muhammad?
Basmallah: No.
Host: No, what did the Jews do to him?
Basmallah: The Prophet Muhammad killed someone..
Host: Obviously, our master Muhammad was strong and could have killed them. All right, you know the traditions about the Jews and what they did to the Prophet Muhammad? Is there a story you know?
Basmallah: Yes, the story about the Jewish woman.
Host: The Jewish woman? What did she do to our master the Prophet Muhammad?
Basmallah: The Jewish woman?
Host: Yes.
Basmallah: There was a Jewish woman who invited the Prophet and his friends. When he asked her, 'Did you put poison (in my food)?' she said to him, 'Yes.' He asked her, 'Why did you do this?' and she replied: 'If you are a liar - you will die and Allah will not protect you; if you speak the truth - Allah will protect you.'
Host: And our God protected the Prophet Muhammad, of course.
Basmallah: And he said to his friends: 'I will kill this lady.'
Host: Of course, because she put poison in his food, this Jewess.
Host: Basmallah, Allah be praised, Basmallah, Allah be praised. May our God bless her. No one could wish Allah could give him a more believing girl than she� May Allah bless her and her father and mother. The next generation of children must be true Muslims. We must educate them now while they are still children so that they will be true Muslims. |
The site www.islamanswersback.com provides an amusing attack on Christianity � one seemingly based on the nature of modal verbs.
| Quote: |
Let me also point out that in the New Testament at many places what Jesus is said to have uttered was not understood by the disciples and Jesus is not seen to have made any attempt to clear things up for his disciples, we find a classic example of this in John chapter 3: 1-12; let me quote John 3:16-17 before I point out the main problem.
KJV John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
There has always been a serious problem with the word everlasting used in 3:16 above. But the major problem lies in the verse 3:17 where the word might is used.
The word �might� is a clear proof that salvation by following Christianity and believing in Jesus is not only highly questionable but is contrary to the fact.
The word might is the past tense of word may, which is used in the English language to indicate a condition or state contrary to fact. Please keep this in mind that this is not my opinion, it is a fact that can be verified by using any good English dictionary or grammar rules book. Let me quote the American Heritage Dictionary to prove my point:
might2 (m؛t) aux.v. Past tense of may1. 1.a. Used to indicate a condition or state contrary to fact: She might help if she knew the truth. b. Used to indicate a possibility or probability that is weaker than may: We might discover a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. 2. Used to express possibility or probability or permission in the past: She told him yesterday he might not go on the trip. 3. Used to express a higher degree of deference or politeness than may, ought, or should: Might I express my opinion? [Middle English, from Old English meahte, mihte, first and third person sing. past tense of magan, to be able. See MAY1.]
Now who want to believe in something like John 3:16 that Jesus was alleged son of god or god himself, but John 3:17 tells us that salvation is not a matter of fact but rather it is contrary to the fact.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Why would some one follow a religion in which salvation is not possible and is contrary to the fact according to John 3:17; let alone guaranteed?
Let me also quote some other eye opening facts showing why I am not Christian and why you shouldn�t be as well? |
A lot of the anti-Islam ammunition seems based on the more fanatical end of things, though. Surely not all Muslims are brought up in the same way as little Basmallah? Indonesians are generally considered to be 'moderate Muslims', they are relaxed about things on the whole - right?
| NumberOneSon, about Indonesia in another thread here at Dave's wrote: |
I met a lot of nice people there, too. And quite a few I felt sorry
for, especially the Chinese and non-Muslims. It was the first
place I lived where I could actually feel oppression in the air
during everyday life.
For example, the Muslims were always watching to see which
Indonesians socialized with the foreigners and then would
gossip about them in the local mosques. It was to the point
that many Indonesians would insist that the shades be closed
when they came to visit westerners so they wouldn't be talked
about. They were that paranoid. Only it wasn't paranoia.
As a result, we mostly socialized with Indonesian Christians
and Chinese. Most Indonesian Muslims stayed away from
all our private gatherings and wuold usually politely decline
most invitations to protect their reputations. |
I remember walking past a Mosque in Java, and seeing the logo of two guns crossed over each other below the Mosque name. A religion of peace, indeed.
Sites such as faithfreedom go at great lengths to explain that Muslim People are not the problem, it is the actual faith itself. The 'real Islam', it is argued, really is plain horrible. The nice Muslims that we get on with down the pub are nice precisely because they aren't really Muslim at all.
I understand far too little about the subject to confidently reach a conclusion about any of this, but I doubt I'll be living in Saudi any time soon 
(And this, post-edit...)
I am not a self proclaimed expert on Islam. I am interested in ways that it is percieved by both Muslims and non-Muslims, more from a social science point of view than a spiritual or religious one.
The questions, then, revolve around perceptions of Islam and their accuracy. Perhaps unsurprisingly the internet is divided in a kind of e-war between the defenders and attackers of Islam. Some aspects of Islam certainly do seem easy to have a go at... At the same time, though, I doubt that the entire Muslim world is in quite the state of moral decay that the so-called "Islam attackers" claim it is. Or maybe it is, I simply don't know - this is what I'm asking! I am interested in other people's opinions and experiences regarding Islam itself and Muslim people/societies - and more specifically how they relate to the Islamic "stereotype" that exists in the West.
Last edited by leeroy on Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:52 pm Post subject: Yikes! |
|
|
Dear leeroy,
Congratulations. You have opened here what is probably not just a can - but could instead be more aptly called a shipping container - full of worms.
I'm staying out of this one - it's a no-win situation.
Regards,
John
P.S. Well, we've done sex and we're doing religion. Guess politics is the only other one left. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tammy
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 45
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wow leeroy! sounds like you really know what you're talking about! you must have spent like a whole day out of all your life doing internet searches to gather the above info on islam! you must know everything there is to know about the religion! and how nice of you to come and share your oh so extensive knowledge and oh so very open-minded views on the subject with the people here at dave's! what exactly was the purpose of your post again? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sara Avalon
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 254
Location: On the Prowl
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
... can I ask you a few questions, Leeroy?
If you have never been a muslim before.
Never stepped two footsteps in the shoes of one,
Never worn a scarf that covered your head from men's eyes,
Never been told not to touch another human being that was not of your immediate family, and even then not the males.
Never been told repeatedly since the day you were born that the only thing about you worth a pinch of salt was your chastity (otherwise you are worthless, loose garbage no man would ever look at with seriousness or that you'd be slaughtered on spot)
Never felt the sun on your bare skin since you were six years old,
Never been told not to laugh in public because it attracts attention,
Or told that to wear a little makeup or clothes that showed your curves is to be a harlot worthy of being raped.
If you've never hid at the sound of footsteps when you had no scarf on for fear a man will see you, or been told to wait in a room for days on end because there were men in the house who were walking about,
Or have been told that your fate and married life is not something of your control, but subject to approval by not only your parents but entire community (if your grandmother hates the man, he's not acceptable)
Or have never been told how to pray five times and wash for it.
Told how to read the Koran and memorize it,
Never experienced the scorn of even believing in anything other than this faith,
And been persecuted by those who follow it but are from another faction,
Or never placed a piece of pork on your lips, or wine, or were told at a young age that listening to anything BUT classical music is to invoke satan,
Or even if you've never learned a single arabic word in your life,
Or felt the eyes of those who look at you and know what you are, but never WHO you are,
Been called names and kept your mouth shut because to talk back meant to be just like those who persecute you (unknowing that you have born this kind of wretched pain for longer than they have blindly hated you)
Or had groups of people "assume" things about you that they never bothered to ask you about because they read up on the faith and didn't want to upset you (when what is in question is a party with friends or simple get together)
Or never played with a barbie or a chess board because one is made by jews (Mattel) and the other was banned by the religious leader your parents follow,
................................
...how can you even begin to say you know enough to tell a muslim (who may even agree with you) or a non-muslim that you think Islam is a load of bull? I could give you a 1,000 reasons why you're right, but none of them would be anything concrete enough to condemn the billions of people from diverse wakes of life, who follow Islam. There's no one belief you can throw at anyone who believes in "God" or the "Divine Power" that can make them change their mind completely and on the spot. No single debate you can spark that would have them all repenting their past "mistakes" made in blind faith. You haven't even believed in or practiced this faith to start with yourself, how can you know for a fact that it's wrong or right? Based on a few internet searches and some pub crawlers who call themselves muslim?
I lived in that religion for 20 years.. and even I can't boast all the answers to my own questions...
To hate something blindly is just as bad as to be one who believes in it without a single shred of true understanding of all it's implications.
Last edited by Sara Avalon on Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tammy
| leeroy wrote: |
| I understand far too little about the subject to confidently reach a conclusion about any of this |
I would honestly like to understand more.
Your sarcasm implies that I am "closed-minded" - presumably meaning that I have pre-judged Islam and am simply out to discredit it. On the contrary I'm interested in a number of opinions from a wide range of sources. The point is that the issue isn't black and white - we can't easily conclude "Islam's nice really!" because some aspects of it quite clearly aren't. On the other hand, if it really were so terrible as some of the links in the OP seem to indicate then why have most of the Muslims I've met seemed nice enough people? Are the portrayals of Islamic media found online accurate (such as the interview with the 3 year old), or hopelessly biased? These were some of the questions that (I hoped) were implicit in the OP.
Blindly assuming that "well there were things in there that were anti-islam therefore this guy must be a closed-minded bigot" is a reaction that I had anticipated, though.
sara
No, I've never been a muslim - and I'm no self-proclaimed expert on it. The point of the OP was not to explain Islam, rather give a taster of my (limited) experience of it in real life and online. From the sound of things you have far more 'right' than I do to harbour negative feelings towards Islam - but do these extend towards anyone who professes to be a muslim? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sara Avalon
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 254
Location: On the Prowl
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| leeroy wrote: |
Blindly assuming that "well there were things in there that were anti-islam therefore this guy must be a closed-minded bigot" is a reaction that I had anticipated, though.
sara
No, I've never been a muslim - and I'm no self-proclaimed expert on it. The point of the OP was not to explain Islam, rather give a taster of my (limited) experience of it in real life and online. |
Please don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is no one can give you the answers you're trying to pose. Not a muslim, not an anti-muslim. Because there's no one who can understand the religion to it's full extent.. not even the religious "leaders" because the majority.. no.. all of them are MEN. Of course they won't believe in equality. Of course they won't be sympathetic to women's causes because they have no reason to go against the norm, to break with tradition and set themselves up to be an outcast. Why should they go against what benefits them the most?..
...heck, if I knew all the answers.. I wouldn't be so confused about it right now.. It's not just about the religion anymore either. A lot of things about it, is conditioned. The majority of people who eventually find themselves on the fence, like I have, have experienced too many cultures and events in their lives to believe strongly one way or another.
The only thingl I know for sure is... I don't know anything.. and all those who tell you they -do- know don't actually know either.. that's the whole point of belief anyway: believing in something that may or may not actually exist, but based on your finite reasoning you make judgements on the nature of it and it's reality..
The experiences you raise are nothing new to me, Leeroy. But I'll confess that I get defensive.. anyone would who has had to deal with this kind of thing for as long as they can remember. Perhaps the best way to start a conversation that you're asking for opinions on, knowledge, and understanding.. is to ask questions.. not answer them. That way, no one can accuse you of being closed-minded. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tammy
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 45
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sara wrote:
| Quote: |
| Of course they won't be sympathetic to women's causes because they have no reason to go against the norm, to break with tradition and set themselves up to be an outcast. Why should they go against what benefits them the most?.. |
Exactly. Islam, in its true form, is quite unlike the religion we are discussing at this moment. Like Sara, I'm also confused about understanding Islam to it's full extent.
If a Muslim girl doesn't wear a headscarf, does that make her a bad Muslim? I think not. If just wearing a headscarf were to guarantee a place in heaven and save a person from the burning flames of hell, then I'd put one on right now! There's a lot more to being a good Muslim than just covering your hair. Or having four wives. Or not drinking alcohol. One must understand why the headscarf is such an important part of a Muslim girl's life, why a Muslim man can have four wives, why alcohol is forbidden in Islam.
You seem to genuinely want to understand Islam. Maybe you need to ask yourself why, despite the faults highlighted in the OP, it is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:02 am Post subject: Re: Islam |
|
|
| leeroy wrote: |
| Islam, it's suffering from a bit of a bad rep at the moment... |
The original post should win some kind of award for being both long and boring.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
I worked in Morocco two times. I had a favorable impression of Islam.
But I am a man.
The idea of women covering their bodies and hair isn`t the same over the world. In Afghanistan it was extreme. one could argue that it was a traditional element in Afghan society that wanted women covered in the way it was.
In Morocco, some women wear a hijab and some don`t. It was a woman`s choice. older women tended to wear it. In Iran, the women did not have a choice. However, Iran is changing.
I recommend that Moroccan writer and sociologist Fatima Mernissi. She has written a lot on Arab society.
An idea is that the street is for men and the home is for women. A woman who covers herself but is hassled by a man is not to blame. It is the man who is at fault.
It is not suprising, then, that female tourists in Morocco receive attention from men: they don`t wear jelabas.
There are many Muslim countries in the world, and there are different interpretations of the Koran. It is not easy to compare Tunisia to Oman, or Chad to Malaysia.
Just like Christianity, there are good and bad Muslims. There are good and bad people everywhere.
I met a lot of good people in Rabat and Casablanca that happened to be Muslim.
Try breaking the fast during Ramadan with a Muslim family. I did, and more than once. Maybe it was their way of thanking me for teaching their only son.
For Ramadan, I can imagine not eating, but not drinking all day, especially in the summertime? That is hard.
I remember teaching an intensive TOEFL class during Ramadan. My students wanted to drink tea during their break, but of course they did not.
I enjoyed talking to my students. Most topics were acceptable, except Israel.
I think many problems would be solved in the Arab world if all (or most) Arabs could read, and if the unemployment rate was much less than it is now.
In Arabic there is a proverb: a hungry man is an angry man. Many Arabs are hungry now, but not only for food, but for work.
Ramadan is the time to remember the people who are hungry month after month, not just during the month of Ramadan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James_T_Kirk
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 357
Location: Ten Forward
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ah, religion! Always a fun topic that brings people together! Any religion, whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, etc (even Satanism, perhaps the most misunderstood religion of all) can either be a really good thing or a really bad thing. I don't remember a lot of what I learned back in high school (the binge drinking I did in college and during my teaching stint in China killed most of those brain cells ), but I do remember learning about the fundamentals of all the major world religions in Social Science class. Going into these classes, my perception was that all of these religions differed greatly. Oddly enough, it turns out that they are all basically the same. They all promote the same basic ideas, believe in a moral system for advancement, and contain one form or another of the "golden rule". We get into problems with religion when we start fighting over the details. We take these ancient texts (that may or may not have been accurately translated by the time we see them in English), read into what they are saying too literally, and complete take the information out of context! It is dangerous when people have such a strong and blind faith, yet can't accurately interpret their own body of religious texts. I respect all religions; I just wish that people would use their common sense and their faith in determining whether something is right or wrong, instead of basing their decision on what it says in their Bible or Koran (or worse, what someone else tells them it says in their Bible or Koran). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: Book 'em, Danno |
|
|
Dear leeroy,
OK, I said I'd stay out of it. But, if you really want to learn about Islam, I'd suggest:
1. "What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam" by John Esposito (and any of his other books on the subject)
2. "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong
3. "The Complete Idiots Guide to Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick
That should get you started, anyway.
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
"The complete idiots guide to understanding Islam"
I think that must have been the book that all my Arab students read |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sidjameson
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 629
Location: osaka
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Muslims believe that the koran is the word of God right. If you don't and you think it is just the word of man I don't see how you can be a muslim.
The koran clearly says that it is ok for a man to beat his wife. This is the word of God.
I don't see how any women can marry a man who believes in a God who believes in this c.r.a.p.
And muslim women???? how do you stand it? A religion that institutionalizes the oppression of women. The quicker this 1500 year old bollucks is discarded the better.
Sorry I feel so strongly about this but I just think it's plain wrong.
The koran talks S>H>I>T
Oh and and that doesn't mean I'm a Christian. Also I do believe that islam is the fastest growing religion because muslims have the highest birth rate thats all.
Any muslim men out there willing to justify wife beating?
Muslim women. I hope the day of your self liberalization is soon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Snoopy
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 185
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| In my Saudi days, I used to get the Arab News on Fridays, read the Questions and Answers column (unfortunately, the most ridiculous clippings have been left somewhere on my travels), then watch Saudi Channel 2 for the Issues and Answers programme, where there would sometimes be the same question with a contradictory answer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
been_there
Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 284
Location: 127.0.0.1
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quit reading ABOUT the Quaran and read the Quaran. It's a bit longer than Papillion, but then you can ALL go figure it out for yourselves.
BTW, I ALSO suggest that everyone go read the Tao de Ching, the Dhamaphadma, the Nag Hammadi Lexicon, the Diamond Sutra, the Torah, and the Maharabhata. THEN go sit down, figure out what it takes for YOU to fully live you life in peace and harmony with yourself, your surroundings, and your fellow human beings and then you can spend your time doing something else other than posting on a subject that is going to change no-ones mind.
(obviously, I have not reached inner peace yet  ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
