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Serious_Fun
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1171
Location: terra incognita
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flyer
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 539
Location: Sapporo Japan
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 Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:45 am Post subject: |
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its not about what a few students think, its about whether its a good use of tax payers money
even if they played video games many students would like it |
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cvmurrieta
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 209
Location: Sendai, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:33 am Post subject: |
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JET has already been grounded in my cho.
I agree with flyer's assessment. From what I have seen on JET-affiliated web sites, the former JETs always fail to quantify how JET has raised the English level of the students they teach. In more affluent times, one can get away with appealing to the "soft" skills that JETs bring to the table. In lean times like now, it's all about the numbers. If your numbers don't add up to what the decision-makers are looking for, then the JET Program will get the axe.
Heck, if former JETs and former students of JETs want to express their support, maybe they should organize a demonstration instead of relying on the goodwill of government officials to save the program.
In its current form, JET should be abolished. If it is tweaked and improved with an emphasis on improving the English level of Japanese students, then it should be saved. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| cvmurrieta wrote: |
| I agree with flyer's assessment. From what I have seen on JET-affiliated web sites, the former JETs always fail to quantify how JET has raised the English level of the students they teach. |
It's not up to the JET ALTs to assess that. It should be up to the BOE or school itself, coordinated by CLAIR or JET.
| Quote: |
| In more affluent times, one can get away with appealing to the "soft" skills that JETs bring to the table. In lean times like now, it's all about the numbers. If your numbers don't add up to what the decision-makers are looking for, then the JET Program will get the axe. |
True, but just what do those decision-makers want to see? Either miracles or something ill-defined. Just my opinion. There's a lot more to improving English education in Japan than focusing attention on what untrained uneducated JET ALTs are expected to do.
| Quote: |
| Heck, if former JETs and former students of JETs want to express their support, maybe they should organize a demonstration instead of relying on the goodwill of government officials to save the program. |
Why should former JETs care? They are done. Granted, if some would speak out, all the more power to them, but I just don't see the motivation.
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| In its current form, JET should be abolished. If it is tweaked and improved with an emphasis on improving the English level of Japanese students, then it should be saved. |
Again, I have to say that it's more than what the JET ALT brings to the table. They need far more training IMO to be effective, but there is also the view and actions of the JTEs under whom they work. Take the JET money and send the JTEs abroad for 3-6 months in order to give them the experience and immersion that many need. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| the article wrote: |
| At a time of fiscal austerity and when thousands of native English-speakers � many with teaching qualifications, Japanese language ability and a much better understanding of Japanese culture � can be hired as contract workers from private firms depending on local needs and at lower cost, why should Japanese taxpayers continue to subsidize the JET program? |
I like the way it doesn't once mention the difference in pay between JETs and dispatched ALT and lack of health care or job stability, despite their teaching qualifications and much better understanding of Japanese culture. Or the way that these contract workers can be and are often treated by their schools making demands on the dispatch company (including, "this ALT doesn't have blue eyes. Therefore the students don't like her. That means you need to get us a new one [and we'll ignore that that means firing someone mid-contract based on the colour of her eyes]") that are relayed to the ALT.
If they do get rid of the JET program, will they do something to make sure that the people who are in the country teaching English with teaching qualifications and a much better understanding Japanese language and culture have appropriate salaries and the kind of stability that Japanese teachers have? Probably not.
The problem with getting rid of the JET program altogether is that rural areas will have a lot of difficulty getting access to any of those contract workers with qualifications etc, because most people simply don't want to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Having been in JET for four years, and having been in Japan another three years after that, I've known a lot of JETs, and there are exceptions, but there are more and more frat-boy (and girl) kinds arriving each year.
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| They have usually enjoyed their stay... |
Most have enjoyed their stay? That's odd. Half of them decide that they aren't going to be back the following August by recontract time (given out in December, less than four months after having actually started teaching). Prefectural advisors are full time employees whose main job is to field frequent complaints over 'misunderstandings' (like when Boards of Education simply refuse to approve taking any vacation stipulated in the contract at all. Oh! And the popular 'Japanese Teacher X cannot understand your English. Please do not speak English in class or outside of it'. to people with perfectly understandable English who don't know Japanese).
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| their effectiveness in improving the English language ability of their students was never quantitatively measured and, given Japanese students' performances on international English tests, is questionable at best. |
And why is it the Assistant Language Teacher's fault that students' performances on International English tests is so abysmal? Shouldn't that be the fault of the teachers, and not their assistants (the ones that these JTEs are never really trained in how to work with, although it's a mandatory part of their job. It's like a teacher training program for English native speakers that doesn't actually teach grammar). Except of course, that teachers cannot be blamed, they process the textbook that the school tells them to, and the school just picks from the list approved by the government. But who do they blame for the abysmal results in other subjects?
Maybe it's because it's a system that students can slide all the way through by just never disrupting the teachers (including by asking questions when they don't understand something), even if they just sit there all day or even just never show up to school in many cases. I've read that students are showing up to university to study economics without any real understanding of math.
The problem is that schools do their job of getting kids through (mainly because it is virtually impossible to fail. Some private schools will kick a student out who does really poorly, most don't), and don't really think about or really care what happens to them after. It's easier to just give a kid 60% all the way through, and then when he or she fails the next entrance exam, it isn't the school's fault and that person is no longer a student of that school so it's not their problem.
You can't really blame students for doing virtually nothing at all. They're kids- ones who often have almost no free time to themselves because they have to sit in a chair at school (you can make a kid sit at his desk, but you can't make hum study), then sit through juku (where again, the kid sits at the desk and doesn't actually study) etc. Basically, the kids don't want to study because their kids. They don't want to try to use what they've memorized in any creative way because that creates the risk of being 'wrong'. The teachers graduated from this system and so have learned to never question authority, and to never risk being 'wrong' and so they process the textbook that they are told to process. The head teachers and leadership got there by following this really very, very well, AND having the right 'atmosphere'. Then they are at the top of their school because they are able to follow directions from above with no questions, except that now it's them who's supposed to be giving the directions. And so they look to above them- the government- for the answers. The government is good at passing judgements, but not so good at writing national curriculae, and therefore make up guidelines for publishing companies who dutifully make up textbooks for the government to judge. Then those textbooks are 'taught' by going from page to page to page and never questioning the value of this, because it has the government stamp of approval. |
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razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Not for the first time I'll assert this: JET'll be toast within a decade.
Hell, let's make it half a decade.
When JET's gone, what'll be left for half-decent contracts? Just about sweet (expletive), that's what.
My faint hope is that JET, as far as decent benefits for native speakers go(and JET isn't Shangri-la...it just provides decent contract conditions in relative terms to comparative non-JET ones these days), will change its tune to accommodate a compromise: "we'll keep the gravy train but JETs will have to offer more than being a blue-eyed 24-yr. old just out of university."
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=78495&highlight=
I ain't holdin' my breath....
PS Obviously many posters(with vested interests, no doubt)took exception to my proposals. Fine. But my point is that, in order for JET to continue, SOME criteria should be expected from JETs than merely being, well...what they are now....
Last edited by razorhideki on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| razorhideki wrote: |
When JET's gone, what'll be left for half-decent contracts? Just about sweet (expletive), that's what. |
Depends. If somebody does something about the way dispatch companies operate- or better, just outlaw them with the exception of a role that gets them a one-time finder's fee and then the ALT (a term I consider derogatory for a lot of people, and a bit of a stretch for the human tape recorders out there: I realize that the role is really up tot he JTE) is a direct hire. But a lot of schools don't want that- hiring directly, because it means treating the foreigner like a person. The government seems to be tackling the issue of contract labour on an industry by industry basis, which obviously leads to a lot of unfairness going on.
| Quote: |
"we'll keep the gravy train but JETs will have to offer more than being a blue-eyed 24-yr. old just out of university."
...
I ain't holdin' my breath....
...
my point is that, in order to JET to continue, SOME criteria should be expected from JETs than merely being, well...what they are now.... |
There are a number of issues. One is that the people who make decisions about the JET program actually have no background in language education- and often don't really understand it as more than 'just speaking your own language'. Another is that the idea that young people will get kids to study because young people are closer in age and therefore make studying fun. It's just not really true. Someone closer to the student's age may make class-time more fun for them, true (if they are allowed to just play games). But there still isn't anything being done about the problem of kids not actually studying or doing homework. Japanese teachers of English aren't trained to work with foreigners, and often don't really understand the language well enough to be comfortable with free talking with them. There is also a problem of a perception among Japanese teachers that ALTs take away jobs from Japanese people (though where they get THAT idea from, I dunno).
Japan hires people with absolutely no training because they lump ALTs in with cleaning staff in their hierarchy, and assume that people from the other side of the world somehow know how to make life fun for their kids in a way that the teachers themselves do not. People with training would be nice, but there aren't enough to go around and it is threatening to Japanese teachers because of differences in teacher training between English speaking countries and Japan, and the worry that the foreigner will know 'more' about the language and language teaching than the Japanese teacher, and worse, the students will realize that. So what can they do? Either work very, very hard by studying English constantly and attending conferences designed to help them become better teachers (as in the kind of thing that professional language teachers do all the time through JALT etc), OR just get people that they don't see as a threat (people with no training) and then show the kids how much more Japanese people know about English then native speakers of the language. Option one takes a LOT of work, and it's continual work, option two takes nothing. |
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kotoko
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
People with training would be nice, but there aren't enough to go around and it is threatening to Japanese teachers because of differences in teacher training between English speaking countries and Japan, and the worry that the foreigner will know 'more' about the language and language teaching than the Japanese teacher, and worse, the students will realize that. |
This.
I am a 2nd year JET. I speak Japanese fairly well (JLPT 2) and have a degree in TESOL. Every single day, I sit at my desk and stare into space, then go to classes, stand next to the wall, hide my yawns, and occasionally teach something. I have asked again and again to be given something to do, but they just don't know how to use me. JTEs think that ALTs can only play games, as opposed to actually teach something some times.
I think JET has 3 choices if they are to survive the next decade:
1. Hire less people who are bumbling idiots who come into school with a baseball cap, smelling of hangover and do mainly nothing in school. I hear from the new JETs that there are less of these types in the newbies.
2. If you have people with Japanese skills, and you're not going to use them in schools as they should, give them some semi-CIR type jobs to do. I know one girl who is half CIR half ALT. She does translation and some events and stuff. I think in the countryside JETs like this would be really useful.
3. Keep things as they are but get the BoEs to spend more time training JTEs to work with us and making sure they stick to it. My BoE has frequent meetings with ALTs and with ALTs and JTEs with workshops and presentations on how to work together. Most of the time this stuff goes in one ear and out the other. At our big JET meeting in Jan, there was a big presentation on how we should all set out classes to be like those in Finland. Everyone agreed that the Finnish lessons were very good. Did anything change after that? No, of course not.
OR
Get rid of ALTs all together and send JTEs abroad to study for at least 6 months so they learn to actually speak English. The upside of this is that kids in the country wont have the chance to speak to, play with, and get to know any foreigners. I think that more than anything, getting kids used to foreigners is the most important part of our job. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| kotoko wrote: |
| I am a 2nd year JET. I speak Japanese fairly well (JLPT 2) and have a degree in TESOL. |
You are a rare JET ALT.
| Quote: |
| Every single day, I sit at my desk and stare into space, then go to classes, stand next to the wall, hide my yawns, and occasionally teach something. I have asked again and again to be given something to do, but they just don't know how to use me. JTEs think that ALTs can only play games, as opposed to actually teach something some times. |
Do you just ask for something to do, or do you actually propose things beyond games?
| Quote: |
I think JET has 3 choices if they are to survive the next decade:
3. Keep things as they are but get the BoEs to spend more time training JTEs to work with us and making sure they stick to it. |
This is a biggie, and I agree, but in order to make that succeed a lot has to happen. BOEs have to realize, for one, that a lot of the problem lies with their own JTEs. For another, they have to convince the JTEs to change. Just "training" them in Japan will probably not cut it enough. Send them overseas where they are the minority teaching person and where they have to learn more English to communicate, not just to make an attempt at teaching. (At my uni, our "old man of the sea" English teacher of 32 years in just this school retired. He couldn't make more than a weak stab at speaking in English.)
| Quote: |
| My BoE has frequent meetings with ALTs and with ALTs and JTEs with workshops and presentations on how to work together. Most of the time this stuff goes in one ear and out the other. |
This is what I mean! So, how would you propose to keep it between the ears and work? |
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razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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kotoko: What do you mean by....?
1) "I hear from the new JETs...." This sentence doesn't really make sense.
2) "The upside of this...." You mean, it's a good thing for native speakers of English not to be exposed to Japanese students?  |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Bad times to be a JET or an ALT. Too many changes going on with BOEs with regards to JETs/ALTs....all done in the slow but painful Japanese style.
Or just do it for a year or two and quit. You're going to be kicked around. Many already have been and are.
| razorhide wrote: |
Not for the first time I'll assert this: JET'll be toast within a decade.
Hell, let's make it half a decade.
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I agree with razorhide, though I'd give it a bit longer...the Japanese like the endure the pain and suffering and more, if not to save the own embarrassment , and also make sure the foreigners get a fair share of it too (read: you can complain and grumble for all you care but it is just gonna be hot air) .... after all, who else are they going to blame for its failure and doom  |
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razorhideki
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: |
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I'll make a point of coming to this thread in 2015 to see if I'm right....  |
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genesis315
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 116
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| see you all back here in 2015! I am curious how things will be then. I read over on Gaijinpot that the visa rules are suppose to be relaxing a bit. I bet the market will still be flooded then, but maybe immigration will be a little more simplified. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cvmurrieta wrote: |
JET has already been grounded in my cho.
I agree with flyer's assessment. From what I have seen on JET-affiliated web sites, the former JETs always fail to quantify how JET has raised the English level of the students they teach. In more affluent times, one can get away with appealing to the "soft" skills that JETs bring to the table. In lean times like now, it's all about the numbers. If your numbers don't add up to what the decision-makers are looking for, then the JET Program will get the axe.
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You were assuming that JET is and should only be about English teaching.
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In its current form, JET should be abolished. If it is tweaked and improved with an emphasis on improving the English level of Japanese students, then it should be saved.
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You don't appear to know what JET's current form actually is. It's been moving away from the "internationalisation" theme for almost 10 years now. What is needed is a clear mandate from the powers that be to become a teaching program. That won't happen. Which means that JET will continue to whither and overall ALT numbers will continue to increase and English will continue to get even worse in Japan as the dispatch agencies continue to race to the bottom in terms of what they supply as "teachers".
The demand is there. The program to supply it exists. The only things standing in the way are institutional inertia, the 'free market', and the Japanese education system itself. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
If they do get rid of the JET program, will they do something to make sure that the people who are in the country teaching English with teaching qualifications and a much better understanding Japanese language and culture have appropriate salaries and the kind of stability that Japanese teachers have? Probably not.
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You and I both know the answer to that one. And I would disagree with the "qualified and Japanese-experienced" statement. In my experience, while the dispatch agencies can pull those sorts of people together, they generally don't.
| Quote: |
Having been in JET for four years, and having been in Japan another three years after that, I've known a lot of JETs, and there are exceptions, but there are more and more frat-boy (and girl) kinds arriving each year.
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I'd disagree with that. Having seen the people that have been selected in several consulates in the last ~4 years, my opinion is that the quality has been going up rapidly. IMO the low point was around 2000 when JET was pushing to break the 6000 number for those on the program. (My time, actually... ;> )
There are certainly the frat boy/girl & chav elements in there. There always will be when you're hiring that many people each year. But overall, I think the dipshit quotient is lowering. (I except the English from this trend: they seem to be increasing. Not the Scots or Irish. It's just the English. It's like they're trying to export all the chavs they can find with degrees.)
And lots of other stuff.  YMMV. |
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