Job Discussion Forums

[tongs]

Hello i am in Saigon living with my wife (teacher at international school) and thinking of teaching english.

Can i do a tefl course with no degree,and get a job after the course ?
I have a referance stating i have over 5 years manager experiance, police check for WP.

Thoughts please

thanks in advance

[mark_in_saigon]

If your wife is an English teacher, she certainly should be able to get this kind of information for you. You did not say what she teaches, but regardless, she should have some insight. Certainly you know what the legal regulations are on this already, right? Living in VN, interested in the work, wife is a teacher, you gotta already know. So, the question is, what is really happening in reality? In reality, there are people teaching on tourist visas for cash. But you are wanting to be legal, right? Probably the most intelligent thing you could do would be to volunteer your services to various institutions for free, so you would not jeopardize your future legal status (assuming that is important to you). Then, your skills are what they are. The CELTA or whatever is going to marginally improve them, but the market can make a judgment on you without going through all that. If your skills are superior, they will love you and be all over you to try to "find a way" to get you legal. If the market gives you the big "thumbs down", then you have to make a decision if you want to take the course and still keep trying (or work without legal sanction). You can go around and meet teachers here and make your own judgments on their relative skills, but if they have the 4 year degree, they can generally get hired regardless. Without the degree, your true abilities become a lot more important.

[tongs]

Thanks for the reply, you hit the nail on the head with your post.

Do many people get kick out the country for cash in hand jobs ?

[mark_in_saigon]

To me, the question is, what are your priorities, what is your comfort level of going bandit? If it is important to you to be able to live here long term, like if your wife is legally working, and you do not want to run the risk of being kicked out, then you would probably want to be legal. Older people like myself tend to be a lot more conservative, we do not want to screw up what we have going on. I cannot speak for younger people. I do know there is a lot of working going on off the books, (people of all ages) this may have increased due to the recent difficulties with the work permitting situation. It does seem that a lot of folks take a pretty blase attitude towards it, I guess they figure if they get kicked out it is not a big deal to them. I think some of people who work like this are adventurers first, and teachers a distant second. I do not hear much at all about people actually being kicked out for that reason, although I think the recent visa clampdown caused a lot of churn among the expat community. Personally, I think the best policy is to be legal, but I can certainly sympathize with why a person would throw in the towel and just go outlaw on the deal.

[tongs]

Thanks Mark

I will try my luck at some Small schools first.Is the best route to just turn up at schools and hand my C.V in to them(and sell myself) .Are there any schools(or training centers) that you know of that would take me on with no experiance of teaching in HCHM ?

Neil

[mark_in_saigon]

the more you get noticed. Obviously, you would not approach the (so called) tier 1 institutions. The professionalism (or lack of it) among institutions does not always relate to their success and size, but regardless, the better known language schools are off your list. But if you are quite sincere, make a good presentation, and develop contacts, you can easily find institutions to talk to you and give you a try. I think that in addition to a resume (or CV), it is very impressive to them to have a detailed cover letter explaining what you are really all about and trying to do. Often, the people who would employ you have very minimal English skills themselves (especially speaking skills), but they can understand if your letter displays superior skills (they can often understand English better in writing), and if it does, that can make a major impression on them. In a case like yours, I would offer to teach free volunteer classes to give them a chance to check you out, and it is also excellent experience for you. Sometimes universities are in need of this kind of help, some universities do not have much of an English program, and they may have more ability to bend the hiring rules. If you see that your skills are adequate to the task, and you perceive the interest to be there, you will certainly have to get some kind of certification in order to work legally and for pay. There is some slack out there, but even with the cert, no degree at all calls for "divine slack" to get hired legally. I would do some free classes, make sure I was going to be able to hack it, try to get an institution that would (supposedly) agree to hire you upon certification, and hope for the best. Walking into any kind of institution and trying to sell yourself cannot hurt, unless rejection will destroy your self confidence. If you walk into enough of them though, with the right attitude, you will soon get a feel for the kind of place that may play ball with you. If you put together your own program that you offer to teach for free, complete with a lot of documentation that you can show them, you will especially get noticed. Sliding over from pure English to some form of specialized training that happens to be taught in English, training in a field that is your true expertise, might also be an option. Much of the English teaching going on is falling on bored ears, if the student is being taught something that really matters to him in his immediate future, he might advance more quickly. Corporate trainers might not have to have exactly the same qualifications as English teachers. Lots of uncertainties out there, lots of promises not being kept, but still lots of need for truly skilled, caring, serious teachers.

[deadlift]

Mark, many of your recent posts seem to start in the middle of a sentence. Not sure why that would be, but something is definitely getting lost in the ether.

[mark_in_saigon]

Maybe you notice the habit I have of starting the post with the subject line, then finishing the sentence in the field for the main body. Read the subject line first, it ties into the main body of the post. Are you folks not reading the subject line when you read a post? I guess I can change my habit, I assumed people were reading the subject lines as well.

[deadlift]

No, I hadn't noticed that. I have to say I've never seen anyone do that, but... whatever floats your sampan, mate. Happy Independence day.

Mot hai ba...

[Oh My God]

[mark_in_saigon]

He is legal to stay, but that does that make him legal to work? My understanding is that LEGALLY he needs a WP to teach English, correct me if I am wrong. If he became a paperwork free teacher, he would then be breaking the law, and subject to removal despite the wife being legal. Is that not a correct reading of the situation? Of course, LOTS of guys are working illegally, but if that is what folks want to do, then the issues of business visas, work permits, and paying taxes do not matter to those folks regardless, and he is just joining that group and taking his chances on removal, in which case he could lose his legal status gained by being married to a legally working expat. Is this not correct?

[Oh My God]

[mark_in_saigon]

I think you missed the point. The point is, if he worries about being removed from the country because he does not follow the rules, then the post saying VN was his oyster and he could work without fear was mistaken. Personally, I try not to flagrantly violate the rules, as I want to be able to stay here permanently. What that has to do with with applying western standards to this country I do not see, unless you are advocating breaking any and all rules, as you perceive that to be the VN standard. That may be a valid argument (about the enforcement of rules), but it does not seem a compelling reason for us to ignore all rules, and if we do follow the rules, I cannot see where it means we are applying western values to the country, just applying them to ourselves. Big difference.

[Oh My God]

[mark_in_saigon]

Take a look at the original post

I have a referance [sic] stating i have over 5 years manager experiance, [sic] police check for WP.

The gentleman is clearly attempting to understand what he can do legally, or he would not speak of his police check for a WP. Yes, you can make the argument that you can do things with absolutely no regard for the rules, and that is certainly a valid argument for some. That was presented as an option early on, as a matter of fact, without any prejudicial judgment on those who follow that course, or espouse that concept.

I think most expats would generally agree with your take on the reality on the ground. Certainly it is interesting and valuable information to know what the expats are doing with reference to following the rules. My information is that there is a large percentage of them that are ignoring the regulations. Each of us decide what route to follow.

The only things that I see you are stating that I disagree with are that attempting to follow the rules and work legally does not (in my opinion) make you a "goody two shoes", nor does it "try to apply Western values to this developing country!". It just means the gentleman is trying to work here legally and understand what his chances are on that. He may actually be so forward looking as to consider that his own actions affect not only himself, but also his already employed wife, at least indirectly.

One may find that trying to focus on the actual technical details of an issue facilitates the actual intent of this kind of a board, which is to actually help people.