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| What is the average size of your current classes? |
| Under 30 students |
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45% |
[ 10 ] |
| 30 to 40 students |
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27% |
[ 6 ] |
| 40 to 50 students |
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| 50 to 60 students |
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
| Over 60 students |
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9% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 22 |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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 Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:43 am Post subject: Class size in public colleges and universities |
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Class size is alluded to all the time but as far as I can see there is no recent poll on this.
Private language schools and international schools will have less students per class but what is your experience in universities and colleges run by provincial or state governments in China |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:40 am Post subject: |
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average 40 students per class - all postgrads
classes grouped by major, NOT by ability
yunnan/kunming public university |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:47 am Post subject: |
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This is based on a contract in 2007-2008. As above, classes grouped together by major, and 40 was a fair average.
I would never take this type of work again. Yes, its easy and not very challenging for the teacher, but I also believe its hardly conducive to good teaching practice, offers little job satisfaction or development, and fall firmly into the 'edutainment' category.
Given the choice of less than 10 adult students grouped by ability, VS 40 teenage students grouped by major .... the choice is simple (for me) |
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edbuch
Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 34
Location: Gansu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Yes, its easy and not very challenging for the teacher, |
Sorry, I don't understand this. How is it easy and not challenging to teach 40 mixed ability students? |
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the_otter
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| edbuch wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, its easy and not very challenging for the teacher, |
Sorry, I don't understand this. How is it easy and not challenging to teach 40 mixed ability students? |
I'm interested in the answer too. I may take notes.
At a guess, I'd say it's because there's not much chance to build relationships with individual students and may consequently be less intense, plus lessons have to stay fairly simple so you can make sure they're all keeping up...
My four first year classes have about twenty-seven students in each one; my two third year classes have thirty-seven. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Without taking the thread too far off topic, the answer is pretty much in the_otters post.
40 students, once a week for 45 minutes. Mixed levels. The class material needs to be very general as mentioned, and individual attention is minimal. The opportunity to really focus on specific problems doesnt really exist IMO. Plus even college or Uni students are like kids really. Thats not just a China thing BTW..students are like kids everywhere 
Compare to a class of 6 adult professionals, 90 mins per lesson, five times a week. Classes are graded so material can be specific, attention to detail and individual students is higher, and so the teacher carries more responsibility IMO. Not only can specific problems be worked on, adult students expect results and for the teacher to work more on correcting individual problems.
Planning material for the first example for a semester, is like planning for a week in the second example! |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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This is interesting stuff so I'm not worried about going away from the poll
- provided you contribute to it if you are a working teacher.
My experience matches nickpellat's. Small classes are resource hungry and his scaling of 2 weeks = 2 months is about right. |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| nickpellatt wrote: |
Without taking the thread too far off topic, the answer is pretty much in the_otters post.
40 students, once a week for 45 minutes. Mixed levels. The class material needs to be very general as mentioned, and individual attention is minimal. The opportunity to really focus on specific problems doesnt really exist IMO. Plus even college or Uni students are like kids really. Thats not just a China thing BTW..students are like kids everywhere
Compare to a class of 6 adult professionals, 90 mins per lesson, five times a week. Classes are graded so material can be specific, attention to detail and individual students is higher, and so the teacher carries more responsibility IMO. Not only can specific problems be worked on, adult students expect results and for the teacher to work more on correcting individual problems.
Planning material for the first example for a semester, is like planning for a week in the second example! |
Although as you alluded to, Uni students are often fairly immature (such has often been my experience in China), one of the main principles of uni education worldwide is the onus on students to be a lot more responsible for their own learning than when they were primary/ middle and high school students.
Despite uni students often being described as "kids" the term "young adults" generally better describes their ages (18- 22).
I only see my uni classes once a week, and set a class discussion with them last semester asking the question "Is one class a week enough for you to make sufficient progress in your English skills?" The answer really was "yes", because it really depends on the motivation level and desire of the student to learn.
One student may be happy with one class a week because all they want is a small titbit of English, to get their ears tickled once a week, and they do not desire to make much progress. On the other hand, more motivated and hungry students will take everything that they can from the one class a week (all the encouragement, instruction, practice and assessment that they can muster) and build on that themselves for the rest of the week. They would realize their role in their own learning, and practice and learn outside of class (at least they should do, and be able to: the teacher should do his best to make sure they have the skills, knowhow and resources to do this).
University students, generally, in principle and maturity, should be at a stage in their learning where they don't need their "hands held" every day by their teacher with several classes a week in the same course. They are on a bridge that leads to a lot more independence and the day when they will graduate and start earning a living for themselves and will have to attend to all those other responsibilities that an adult has to deal with.
They need to start learning those independent coping skills in University/ college. I know there are different levels of both universities and students, and some students need a bit more mollycoddlying than others, but the general principle still applies. Uni teaching is not easy, if you want good results. It is actually more challenging for a teacher to teach his students how to learn for themseves.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime- Chinese Proverb |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| nickpellatt wrote: |
Without taking the thread too far off topic, the answer is pretty much in the_otters post.
40 students, once a week for 45 minutes. Mixed levels. The class material needs to be very general as mentioned, and individual attention is minimal. The opportunity to really focus on specific problems doesnt really exist IMO. Plus even college or Uni students are like kids really. Thats not just a China thing BTW..students are like kids everywhere
Compare to a class of 6 adult professionals, 90 mins per lesson, five times a week. |
most students who make it to college in china have already had several years of instruction in english before ever setting foot in a class conducted by a foreigner. the foundation for the language is already there, it only needs to be built upon once they reach university. for the majority of them, that means instilling the confidence they need to use the language in the real world (that means speaking). this doesn't require five lessons a week. and once motivated in this way the improvements can (and often do) take on a snowball effect.
our college is hardly top of the line but a good percentage of our english dept. students use english outside of class, on qq, and the school holds numerous extra-curricular activities conducted in english (almost entirely organized by the students). the system in place here works well and it can work well anywhere as long as teachers (and students) are willing to help make it work.
on the other hand, people who have little or no foundation in english, or who need to learn English quickly for some pressing reason might benefit from five classes a week, hence training centres. still there's no guarantee five lessons will be any better than one because a lot of it comes down to the person standing at the front of the class. then there's the obvious $$$ factor when dealing with training centres.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| nickpellatt wrote: |
Without taking the thread too far off topic, the answer is pretty much in the_otters post.
40 students, once a week for 45 minutes. Mixed levels. The class material needs to be very general as mentioned, and individual attention is minimal. The opportunity to really focus on specific problems doesnt really exist IMO. Plus even college or Uni students are like kids really. Thats not just a China thing BTW..students are like kids everywhere
Compare to a class of 6 adult professionals, 90 mins per lesson, five times a week. Classes are graded so material can be specific, attention to detail and individual students is higher, and so the teacher carries more responsibility IMO. Not only can specific problems be worked on, adult students expect results and for the teacher to work more on correcting individual problems.
Planning material for the first example for a semester, is like planning for a week in the second example! |
Although as you alluded to, Uni students are often fairly immature (such has often been my experience in China), one of the main principles of uni education worldwide is the onus on students to be a lot more responsible for their own learning than when they were primary/ middle and high school students. |
fully agree. teachers only provide fundamentals for the most part, the student needs to pick up much of the rest on their own time.
the proverb posted above bears repeating:
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
my personal experience as a language student: i studied a second language in university and while i was hardly fluent after four years, the profs i had (two were native speakers, one was a native English speaker fluent in the 2nd language) were very good and through their lessons and their own experiences brought up in class, inspired me to travel to the target country and use the language in a real setting. once I did that and saw the results i realized that all those once a week lessons in the classroom (and work on my own outside class) had finally paid off.
university students/adults don't need to be spoon-fed EVERYTHING. you give them a few tasty morsels in class to whet their appetite and the rest is up to them. I'm happy to say that i have a lot of students here who believe the same philosophy. i also remind my students repeatedly that language learning is a long-term process and there's no easy way. and don't try to measure your progress day to day but instead learn a little bit each day and you are certain to improve over the course of a year. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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I've got 30 students and I think it's a very workable size of class.
200 students would be alright as well, given the circumstances that lectures are provided. I wouldn't mind teaching such a writing class although I'd sure needed either reduced weekly hours or a few hands from other FTs when correcting students' assignements. Note that a powerpoint is quite essential in such a class.
| Quote: |
| most students who make it to college in china have already had several years of instruction in english before ever setting foot in a class conducted by a foreigner. the foundation for the language is already there, it only needs to be built upon once they reach university. for the majority of them, that means instilling the confidence they need to use the language in the real world (that means speaking). this doesn't require five lessons a week. and once motivated in this way the improvements can (and often do) take on a snowball effect. |
I agree the encouragement does have an effect, however, the message is disregarding the high number of locals ill prepared in the language. The "foundation" the message is refering to is just like many local housing projects that're build shaky and unfinished, then molded and rusted over, and then destroyed to give way to new (similar) projects not long after. Users of foreign languages with such shaky foundations often "collapse" once in the country of the language. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I like the proverb, but in fairness.....if you wanted to learn to fish, would you prefer to learn in a class of 40 other would-be fisherman, some with prior fishing experience, some with none, and just see your tutor once a week?
Or do you think you might make more progress by learning in a small group of other fisherman with the same abilities as you, seeing your tutor more often?
I know that sounds a bit flippant, but surely we cant argue against the advantages of small classes and frequent contact time as a valuable tool in improving language skills, accuracy and acquistion?
Igor is correct I feel in talking about the foundation that many students have, and also have it often fails them. Most adult students at training centres (around the world, not just China) have the foundation but still require more instruction. In China the adult students have often gone through H.E and still find their language skills are lacking despite high test scores. The failings of the Uni system create opportunities people like Wall Street who teach adult students.
Anyway...when I was teaching college I had large classes, and after a semester/term, I will confess I still didnt know the names of, or recognise some of my students. Thats me being honest. Maybe that makes me a bad teacher or an unorganised one in some peoples view...but all my classes gave me a total of about 350-400 students.
When I teach small adult classes, I know them all within a week, and can write fortnightly reports on their progress, their problems, and make suggestions on an individual basis from things as far ranging as choosing the correct register of speech, confusing /e/ with /ai/ and subject/verb agreement. I dont believe you can do that with large classes and infrequent contact. Or perhaps I should add that I dont believe I can do that...maybe others can. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Anyway...when I was teaching college I had large classes, and after a semester/term, I will confess I still didnt know the names of, or recognise some of my students. Thats me being honest. Maybe that makes me a bad teacher or an unorganised one in some peoples view...but all my classes gave me a total of about 350-400 students. |
Calling students by their names, correctly, usually gives that extra ecouragement one has mentioned on the topic. That especially if the FT teaches Speaking and/or has some group discussion classes etc. But I don't think it's such a big deal in some other specialty classes.
Now, I am wondering about the 350-400 students from above and how their semester with the FT actually ended. Was there any student evaluation whatsoever or did the students' graduation depend on the courses at all? If so, I'd be very interested to know more about it. If not, is it worth mentioning? |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:10 am Post subject: |
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At my last school the classes were all 40 students.
At my current school my classes are 16-23 students.
I like my current size better because I get to hear every student talk in each class (90 minutes) but it's big enough to where I can lecture about things and write on the board, which I really like doing. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| nickpellatt wrote: |
Anyway...when I was teaching college I had large classes, and after a semester/term, I will confess I still didnt know the names of, or recognise some of my students. Thats me being honest. Maybe that makes me a bad teacher or an unorganised one in some peoples view...but all my classes gave me a total of about 350-400 students.
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I don't think anyone would know the names of 350-400 students after one semester. Last year I had like 220 students each 90 minutes a week and probably only remembered like 30-40 names. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: |
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[quote="igorG"]
| Quote: |
Now, I am wondering about the 350-400 students from above and how their semester with the FT actually ended. Was there any student evaluation whatsoever or did the students' graduation depend on the courses at all? If so, I'd be very interested to know more about it. If not, is it worth mentioning? |
There was an evaluation every 6 months. This was at Hainan College of Foreign Languages and Vocational Education. These classes mentioned above where students majoring in English Education. I think that was a common major, and is basically serves to train students for teaching in village schools etc.
Evaluation of these classes consisted of each student having to prepare a one minute speech which they would deliver to me (and the class) from the podium. Students were called by number, and were graded fairly subjectively on simple areas, content, confidence, pronunciation etc. This normally took two weeks to complete!
These were first year students BTW, I have also taught other majors in slightly different class settings too. This assessment was only for the first year students. Yes, they 'had' to pass, but as is usual ... everyone ends up passing. Anyone I failed, and I did fail people, had the mysterious re-test with a Chinese teacher and they all seemed to pass that. |
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