Job Discussion Forums

[sta]

Hey,

Me and my girlfriend will be moving to Indonesia next year, she has found a job in Bali and I am looking to find work as an English teacher. I was wondering if anyone can give honest information for any troubles I may face in finding a teaching job as; a 'non-white' English native speaker.

My background: I was born and raised in the UK and my parents are of Indian origin. I have a degree and will soon have my TEFL qualification.

I'm worried because after working in India and traveling around South East Asia, I am aware of the culture differences they have regarding skin color and status. My worry is that schools will be looking to give their students the 'bule' experience and this may make it hard or even impossible for me to find work. Has anybody had any experiences with this matter or can anyone either confirm or negate whether this is the case?

I realise this is a sensitive subject but appreciate complete honesty.

Thanks in advance

[phis]

Are you a UK citizen with a British passport? If the answer to that is yes... then you are over the first hurdle.

Excuse me... this isn't racist.. though it may sound that way!... do you speak English like any other person born and raised in the UK.. i.e. without any discernible Indian accent? (Sorry, but you did want brutal honesty!). If the answer to that is yes... then you are over the second hurdle.

The next hurdle would be qualifications... and you sound as if you are dealing with that.

... Go ahead and put in applications... (this sounds racist again, sorry...)... make sure that any photocopied passport photos etc. do not make you look any darker than your natural skin tone. (Oh god, that sounds terrible... you did want brutal honesty, didn't you?). Don't mention your ethnic roots at this stage.

If you've got a job offer based on the above and a telephone interview... then a school withdrew their offer once you said your parents were from India... then that school is definitely racist, and you wouldn't want to work for them anyway! Unfortunately there isn't much you can do about it legally here, re racism laws etc.

I think that your biggest problem may be that there are not that many jobs going in Bali... and those jobs that do come up may well go to people who fit the 'stereotype'.

However, there is one other advantage that you have... once your girlfriend starts working, and people get to know you, you may find that a job offer comes up of its own volition. It may be substituting classes to start... but once you proved yourself... the full-time job offer may follow.

Brutal honesty time: Yes racism does exist here... but there are school that are more enlightened.. especially when they have got to know a person, and also know that person is a good teacher!

Good luck!

[sta]

Thanks Phis,

To answer your questions, yes I have a British passport and as far as I am aware, I speak like every other person from the UK, London specifically. I was more concerned with intitial prejudices that come from having dark or darker skin in a society where everything 'western' and 'white' is considered cool.

One of the initial reasons for posting this thread was that my girlfriend and a group of her friends taught at a University in Yojakarta in 2008. They where all from Europe however one of the girls was of Indonesian origin. After enrollment they told her that she could not continue as they wanted to offer their students the 'bule experience' and she therefore had to drop out only because of her ethnic heritage. I am planning to avoid this by hopefully securing a job before I leave for Indonesia.

Bali is where I idealy want to be but like you said, I see the job opportunities being limited and the pay also seems to be less, so I was thinking Jakarta may be more realistic.

I have 1 other question; I havent actually started my teaching qualifications and am debating which ones to take.

The choice is between CELTA and TEFL online. From what I understand CELTA is a much better qualification but it will cost me around 600 GBP extra and a lot more hassle as TEFL online is so convenient.
What do you guys think? Will a CELTA qualification allow me to get a much better job with a higher salary and in your oppinion is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks for the help

[aku_tonpa]

I knew a young British-Indian guy who worked at EF Kelapa Gading (Jakarta).

As far as the online TEFL goes, schools like TBI claim they will only hire people if they have a CELTA or equivalent i.e. a course that is approx 120 hours with observed teaching. Obviously there is no observed teaching with the online course.

As you want to come to Indonesia and if you want to save some money on a certificate EF offers subsidised TEFL certificates for candidates committing to taking up EFL teaching posts in China, Indonesia or Russia. The training is in Manchester.

Just a suggestion and not a recommendation for EF.

[phis]

Go for the CELTA. It is recognized everywhere, whereas online courses are often discounted by schools here. CELTA plus a degree will definitely open more doors for you, but they are entry requirements for most jobs anyway, so I can't see them opening doors as far as higher salaries are concerned. Not for your first job anyway... need to get a few miles under your belt first!

MOD EDIT

[tasha1011]

All of us know that an employer cannot discriminate against any individual when it comes to the practices within the workforce arena. However, discrimination has existed for many years and it has impacted a person�s emotional, physiological and psychological well-being. I wrote an article about this. You can read it at

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-effects-of-discrimination-in-the-workplace-a298386

[phis]

I take it you are based in LA Tasha1011. You would be hard pressed to get any employer to abide by anti-discrimination laws over here in Indonesia... and I'm not sure there would be any legal redress either.

Different world... different culture. The OP asked for the 'real' situation here... not some theoretical paper... We would all like to live in a perfect world... but it isn't going to happen any time soon.

[b]MOD EDIT[/b]

[travelNteach]

my friend is also from England and both of his parents immigrated there from India. he worked here for about 8 years at 5 different schools and never had a problem. EF english town is internet based teaching and located in bali, but the wages are horrible. during my time here, i have seen people from every ethnicity working as native speakers as long as they were from 1 of the 5 recognized native speaker countries.

dont waste your time with the EF cert, no school other than EF recognizes it. get your CELTA, it is recognized world wide and the most respected. scoll thru the job adverts on any esl board and u will see it come up as a job requirement more that any other cert. online certs are also a waste of time. if u plan to do this for a couple of years, it is good to have some idea of what u should be doing in the classroom as well as make yourself more employable.

good luck

[sta]

Thanks for the posts, especially the last one from travelNteach will help me put some of the fears about job limitations based on ethnicity to rest..

As for the CELTA vs Tefl online debate; last night I did some more research and before reading these posts, I was pretty sure the Tefl online course was the one I would take. These where the reasons;

My actual field is in PR and marketing and the idea was to teach English to give me a year to find work in this field and enough money to live of in the mean time.

The CELTA courses in the UK are difficult because of the timings the course operates under, either:
- Full time 4 weeks courses which are so intensive that working part-time would not be possible
- Part time courses are a better option but the starting dates are so in-frequent and they last AGES (up to 20 weeks)

Also, the cost of the course is easily over double the cost of tefl online.

So taking this into consideration, would you still recommend CELTA?

Another question.. do you know if it is possible to have another part-time job while working for a language school, i.e. will the KITAS allow it? I noticed that many of the jobs are only for 25 hours and gaining work experience in my spare time, may prove valuable for when my contract ends.

Again, thanks for all the help guys

[benbobaggins]

Hi there,

Taking into consideratiuon what you said, i would still try and do the CELTA.

I stayed with a friend in London for a month (I'm from Chester up north), got a part-time job in a bar and earned enough for food and bits and bobs. My friend didn;t ask for anything, but i made sure I cleaned up, cooked etc when he got home.

The benefits are that the CELTA is more recognised and it will make you a better teacher and more prepared. Plus, the higher pay you can earn will pay back the initial costs in the first few months. So, big picture, it's worth a few sacrifices in the end.

About the second job thing - no, not legally can you have a second job - you are not allowed two tax numbers. But, a part-time gig - cash in hand - is fine, but keep it quiet. Your school is your main employer - they deserve your commitment to their contract and obligations.

And the 25 hours thing - that will be your teaching contact hours (time in the classroom) - a good teacher will spend at least another 15 hours a week in the teacher's room preping etc.

Good luck

[phis]

I agree with Benbobaggins. It's a bit of a hassle... but go with the CELTA...

An additional thought which I have mentioned before on another thread: some schools may be more than willing to get you involved in a little PR and marketing, once you are settled in and have demonstrated your teaching ability, of course. This will be kind of 'unofficial work', as your work permit will be for 'teaching', but it can go on your CV at the end of your contract, and it can be mentioned in your final reference. This will be a definite 'plus' when you are job-hunting in the future. Just a word of warning... make sure that they don't overload you with marketing work PLUS your original full load of teaching hours... 'negotiating' is the key word here to make sure your working hours do not become too excessive!!

I wouldn't put your desire to move into marketing on your original application, as they might think you are not really interested in teaching...
However, you can mention your interest in this area briefly in any telephone interview, and gently remind them periodically when you are actually working.

Once again, good luck.

[travelNteach]

i dont think there is any way that u will be able to parley a teaching position into a marketing or PR job, at least not in indonesia. there are only certain fields in which foreigners are allowed to work and marketing isnt one of them.

as far as marketing with a school goes............... usually it consists of being the token foreigner standing at a booth in a mall doing a meet and greet while u are paraded around as the token native speaker. u can try to put forth your ideas, but if u are at a language school that is part of the criteria that the center manager is judged on and he/she certainly wouldnt want to share the glory with u. and generally their marketing program consists of hanging a sign on a tree and paying the owner of that tree 1 million for the year. for the past 3.5 years expats have been banned from entertainment industry.......... making commercials, tv. and the rest. u might be able to get a bit of consulting work, but i think that would be hard and honestly dont think u will be able to parley anything into a full time gig. and u would need to know the language and the cutlure before u can successfully market anything.

yes cetfl is expensive and intensive. but your students will benefit by having a teacher that has a small idea what to do. and u will benefit because the better language schools will hire u. u can get on with TBI 14-16 million, wallstreet 12-14 million, and other schools. u might as well not get one as get an online one. the same schools, ef, eec, direct english, all will hire u without any type of cert if they need teachers at the time. either get CETFL or get nothing. but i think u can see what the people involved in this field in indonesia recommend.

[phis]

Sorry tNt, I hope you haven't misunderstood my post, but I wasn't talking about parleying a teaching job into a full-time marketing job. I did point out that a person would be working as a teacher with a work permit stating that. I know the OP talked about moving into the PR field after a year, but I'm not sure that he actually meant doing that here in Indonesia. Indeed, getting a work permit for that area of work would be virtually impossible, unless you had years of experience and were working more as a consultant training Indonesians effective marketing, etc.

I also was not talking about being the 'international face' of.... in a shopping mall, etc., either. It is possible, while working as a teacher, to become involved in 'internal marketing strategy', and to become part of the team responsible for this, especially if this is your area of expertise. At the end of your teaching contract, there is no reason why this 'experience' cannot be reflected on your CV. If you have been particularly useful in this area, your boss will also be more than willing to mention this in a work reference.

[sta]

Wow.. some really good points to think about. After re-arranging my finances and thinking it over, I think I'll go for CELTA or a TEFL with the trinity stamp based on your advise. The extra hassle and cost will hopefully pay of in the end. Thanks for the input benbobaggins, think i'll try copy your idea and convince a friend to let me stay with him during the duration of the course. I live just outside London and there is a place down the road from me (Weybridge) but it takes 20 weeks which sucks..

Thanks for the info about problems i may find with working in marketing and PR in Indonesia. I was ideally hoping to to move into that field - in Indonesia - after teaching for a year. What you said makes sense though, from what I understand, to get a KITAS your employer has to prove that the job can not be done by an Indonesian, wherein lies the problem as although I have experience, it is not extensive.
Saying that, also what I understand about Indonesia is that business is conducted on much more a personal level, i.e recommendations from friends and using their connections. My girlfriend managed to get her job in PR using this same method. I was optimistically hoping that this may also be possible for me.. although unfortunately i'm not blessed with her wit or charm

I was thinking more about working for free or commission based to build working relationships and demonstrate my ability, giving me options after the teaching contract ends. I wasn't sure if this was allowed, but based on what you said, maybe it's ok as long as it doesn't effect my teaching, or is there something i forgot about? If it doesn't work out then I can always extend my teaching contract which brings it back to the point that it makes more sense to get my CELTA cert and have a good base.

Once again thanks for all the advice, i'm not a frequent forum user and all these posts have helped me a lot. It sounds like they come from a good knowledge base about Indonesia and i'm grateful for you sharing your knowledge and experiences..

[phis]

You're welcome! With your commonsense approach, I am sure you will do really well over here. Good luck with the teacher training course....