Job Discussion Forums

[markustm]

A lot of colleagues have discussed the recent effects of the changes in how the Ministry of Education deem a teacher qualified to work in Indonesia. And some of my colleagues already are having difficulties extending their work permits.

Currently seems to be some confusion over who is qualified for what position. And whether for ESL work, you need a degree and a CELTA, or a TEFL.

Does anyone here really know what the new law states for hiring expatriate teaching staff at language schools , National plus schools and Universities in Indonesia?

[aku_tonpa]

I don't know if this helps. The following is a link to find permen 66 tahun 2009 which google translates as

Granting Permission for Foreign National Teachers in formal and non-formal education units in Indonesia.

http://www.kemdiknas.go.id/list_link/produk-hukum/peraturan-menteri/2009.aspx?indeks=7

There is this post about it at

http://jakartass.net/2010/10/about-granting-permission-for-foreign-national-teachers/

I have only just downloaded the document and am still working my way through it.

Apologies in advance if it is not what you are posting about.

[Durian Tango]

I can only speak for language schools, but the current regulations state that new teachers must have the minimum of a BA in English, Education, ESL, Modern Languages or Linguistics. Even for each of these, the focus should be on English. What type of TEFL certification a teacher has doesn't seem to matter, the degree seems to be the most important thing at the moment.

[Bule_Gila]

What they ask for and what they actually get are two different things altogether.

The Indonesian Government may put in place such a ridiculous regulation but I doubt that it will be enforced. I have said it once and I will say it again...

"There is no country on the planet that has legally working, expat, ESL teachers whom ALL have a minimum BA degree."

If Indonesia beieves it can accomplish the impossible, then they will have a nasty shock when they impliment such a stupid law.

Anyways, fact of the matter is that most ESL schools here ask for a minimum CELTA or equivalent.

[Durian Tango]

I agree with you 100% that the regulations are entirely unfair and uncalled for as some of the best teachers I've known have come from engineering, law and even medical backgrounds (and some with no degrees at all) - a far cry from the types of degrees the government is asking for.

That being said, it's not about 'when' the regulations are implemented because they are being enforced as we speak. There are a great number of applying teachers from abroad that are being turned away for not having one of these select degrees.

The regulations don't seem to be affecting renewing teachers luckily, but for newly applying teachers, they very much apply. Do you know of any schools able to hire teachers with no regard to whether they have a degree or not? Remember, there is a big difference between a school telling an incoming teacher that they can get them a working visa and the one that can actually deliver it within a reasonable amount of time.

[travelNteach]

this thread cracks me up. what is wrong with indonesia wanting people to be qualified for the jobs they are applying for? in our home countries u cannot work without proper teaching credentials. what is wrong with indonesia expecting the same? could you imagine the uproar in your home country if the schools back home were suddenly staffed with indonesians and other foreigners without teaching licenses, much less without a college degree? people would be up in arms. i certainly wouldnt want my children taught by some uneducated people who were simply employed because they could speak a language...... and most of them poorly at that.

the masters degree might seem a bit over the top. however, the public school system in my home county required all teachers to get a masters qualification within 10 years or forego subsequient pay raises. maybe that is why my county has been consistently ranked in the top 3 in the nation for more than 20 years.

and yes bule gila, there are lots of countries where all the teachers have BA. go to taiwan, japan, singapore, thailand, malaysia......... just to name a few. most countries have that requirement and enforce it.

actually indonesia enforcing this law would be a great thing for the qualified teachers here. (and renewing teachers if they are grandfathered in) If the majority of people currently working or applying for teaching jobs are declared ineligible, then teachers that do meet the requirements should see a jump in salary based on the supply and demand ecomonic principles. Teachers, even at languages schools, will have to be offered a much better salary. I know of a few schools that have been unable to hire people without degrees even after offering large bribes. i also know a few schools that are still able to get work permits for people even though they dont have the required degrees. seems for now that it mostly depends on which local immigration office they deal with.

interesting times.

[Bule_Gila]

@ TravelNTeach

I have taught in Singapore and Japan without a BA degree and know many teachers teaching in these countries who do not have a BA degree. You can check job postings on this page and find many schools in the countries you mentioned that do not ask for a minimum BA degree.

You seemed to miss what i said at the beginning of my post. There are countries that ask for such requirements but what they ask for and what they actually get are two different things altogether!

As for Indonesia, i think they have bigger and more important things to address than minimum requirements for expat ESL teachers and this is what is laughable. If we look at the region, we have Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei whom are all looking for qualified ESL teachers. To be honest with you, if I didn't have a family tie to Indonesia and I was an expat teacher with a BA minimum, I would consider teaching in Brunei, Singapore or Malaysia before considering Indonesia. All this regulation does is drive qualified teachers to neighboring countries that can provide better packages.

Indonesia should clean up the problems it has first with regards to red tape, corruption and all that mess, as it relates to ESL schools, then up the qualifications, not vice versa!

[Durian Tango]

I believe the perfect balance is to require a BA, but in any subject, as well as a CELTA or equivalent teaching certificate.

There are plenty of people that don't have a BA and are great teachers, and there are plenty that took a weekend TEFL course and over time became great teachers, but ultimately, if Indonesia wants to standardize their requirements so they are tough, but not too tough, as well as fair - this would be the way to go.

As of this moment though, this is neither here nor there. Indonesia is facing critical times to come when indeed, as others have pointed out, teachers will end up going to neighboring countries if the restrictions aren't eased here i.e. demanding an English-related degree only.

I understand there is lobbying going on to try and get these regulations loosened again, but this will take time and for many, time is running short. That being said, I still hold out hope!

[travelNteach]

yeah i forgot about that weird janpanese-canadian 1 year work exchange program or whatever it is that allows canadians to work in japan for a year without a proper work visa and sponsorship. it is a requirement by the japanese govt that all teachers have a BA. anyway, thailand does so there u go. i didnt have time to check every job posting on dave's but the overwhelming majority stated that a university degree was mandatory, including all the japanese jobs that i looked at.

it would probably help if we distinguised whether people were teaching at government run schools, private schools, languages mills, or fly by night cram schools. anyway, what other countries do or dont do is of no concern, we are only concerned about indonesia wanting to implement policies requiring people to have a college education to be employed as a teacher.

my point remains, we wouldnt allow people without a minimum of a BA and license to teach in our education systems, so why should indonesia? most esl schools in america want a minimum or a MA TESL with a few exceptioins made for people with BA TEFL and years of experience.

[Durian Tango]

TravelNTeach - You make excellent points and one can hardly fault you for expecting Indonesia to have standards as high as Western countries. Is there any reason the citizens of this fine country should get less quality teachers? Absolutely not.

In regards to degrees - I have a BA in English Literature, and upon graduation, couldn't have taught English in a TEFL setting for the life of me. It was only after my 2 month, intensive, in-class TEFL course that I felt ready to hit the classroom. Although there are some aspects of having a BA in English Lit that have helped me be a good TEFL teacher, I still don't think it's imperative to have an English-related degree to be a good TEFL teacher.

A solid CELTA or equivalent course can provide an excellent base for a new teacher and this, combined with a strong work ethic, a supportive school that offers training, observations, feedback and evaluations along with colleagues that pride themselves on being great teachers and a DoS that seems to know anything and everything about grammar and devising killer lesson plans - are enough, in my humble opinion, to provide Indonesian citizens with a solid, if not downright excellent, course in learning English.

[markustm]

Irrespective of how we feel about the new immigration regulations, we really need to know what we need to comply with the new law.

Could anyone state clearly what a teacher needs to teach esl or in a Nat-plus School/ University, as obviously each position requires differing qualifications.

Thanks

[travelNteach]

DT i agree with u. having a BA in English or anything else doesnt prepare anyone to be a teacher. it provides them with the subject material but lacks teaching stategies and methodologies. as you so rightly said, getting u a CTEFL gave u a base on which to begin to grow as a teacher. if you could learn so much in a 120 hour course, imagine how much more you would know with thousands of hours in coursework, pre-practium, and practiums as well as working in tutoring centers and as assistant teachers. even being trained to be a regular english teacher requires a much different skill set and methodologies than teaching ESL. that is why esl teachers are recognized as a speciality and a critical shortage in most schools systems, the same as math and science teachers.

however in the 15 years i have been teaching, i have yet to work at the utopian school that u described. more often than not, i have been more experience and educated than my DOS, have co-workers that are here for a paid cultural experience, and schools that are more concerned with the bottom line than providing support and training. yes, i have worked with a few dedicated individuals, but they were scrambling to teach themselves how to teach, and i have had a few DOS's that were good managers of people and some that where able to provide more than just games to keep the clients entertained. i have never had a school provide me with outside training by properly qualified personnel. maybe these places exist, but i havent had the fortune of working at one outside of the states. the system is what it is and i dont begrudge unqualified people from working as teachers, but i do feel sorry for the students that pay a lot of money, invest their time and energy, and have hopes of a good job in the future that are receiving substandard teaching thru no fault of their own. i am really happy when i see people that are motivated enough to get a least a CTEFL. as u said, it certainly makes a world of difference.

[malu]

[markustm]

I am inclined to agree with you Malu, usually in Indonesia it depends on the situation and the location.

After checking recent job advertisements for teachers, I did notice that over 90% of schools stated a bachelors degree in Education, English or TEFL with the extra option of a recognized CTEFL or CELTA.

Requirement:
� Male or Female, min 25 years old.
� Native from UK, Canada, USA, Australia or New Zealand.
� Min bachelor degree in English Literature/ Education.
� CELTA/ TESOL Certified is a plus.
� Min 2 years of experience in teaching General English as well as Business English (In-House Company Training).
� Experience in teaching Test Prep classes (iBT TOEFL, SAT, IELTS, GRE, GMAT) is a plus.
� A good conversation leader who is creative, resourceful and committed in helping the students to improve their speaking confidence.
� Independent, mature, cooperative, willing to learn and a team Player.


Judging by the wording of the advertisements, the degree is a must, whilst the CTEFL or CELTA is an option which could help the application.

Obviously this means a CTEFL or CELTA is not enough, and applicants who have the relevant degree and experienced are judged more qualified than a CELTA holder.

Could we surmise that someone with a bachelor in English or Education only needs a basic TEFL certificate. If this is the case then, many teachers who state the CELTA is important, may not even qualify to work in Indonesia.

Any thoughts?

[phis]

This all reminds me of students who insist on trying to fit a 100% rule into a situation where a 100% rule does not exist. Instead of accepting the concept that there are always exceptions to every rule, they will drive themselves crazy trying to find that 100% certainty!

The basis of the law here in Indonesia has been explained again and again on various threads... and that there are exceptions to the rules has also been explained... let it go, why don't you..... Stop driving yourself crazy looking for that elusive 100%!