Job Discussion Forums

[Jbhughes]

I've got a temporary residency card and work permit, both of which have been supplied by my sole employer.

Both documents list my employer on them (I realise this is more than likely standard, I'm just providing this information for clarity).

Currently I am in dispute with my employer (I'll spare everyone the details) and am considering my employment options to say the least.

Should I decide that I no longer want to work for them, what would my options be at that point?

Specifically:

Can my employer demand either documents back?
Can my employer 'cancel' either documents?
Could I re-use either documents with a new employer?

I ask my questions from both a legal and a practical stand-point. Clearly I would like leaving my employer to be a sanitary and totally above-board experience; however, should it come to picking up my pay, getting on the bike and putting 2 fingers in the air I would also like to know where I would stand at that point.


I should mention that currently I am not actually contractually obliged to this company, although they have put a contract under my nose to sign and I presume that the endless documents I signed during the work permit process are actually of more relevance or consequence than your average Hợp đồng lao động.


All replies are welcome of course; however, I really would like to hear from anyone who has actually quit a job while in possession of either of these documents.

Many many thanks in advance!

[tefl peasant]

[Andy123]

I forget the exact number of days, but it is a short window of time to transfer it over to your new employer. I know of people who have did this.

The employer is suppose to contact the Depart of Labor once you are no longer employed there. They will probably do it as pay back rather then following the letter of the law.

A little secret is that many schools will call the police to hassle you and your landlord about your papers if you leave on bad terms. Sometimes, if they have some power they will make you move to a hotel. I know several people this happened to.

I hear that people are getting 6 mo temp resid cards with an employment contract.

Good luck. A visa sounds like it is easier to get now so maybe the resid card is not worth the headache anymore. Keeping it simple is always best.

[tefl peasant]

[spycatcher reincarnated]

Differing opinions on what legally belongs to whom, but my take on it is as follows:

TR: this is yours and there is no need to give it back. This is meant to replace a visa and you have to have a visa. Do not give this back.

WP: I say this should be returned to the school. It won't be a problem for the school if you don't return it (just say you lost it) and it won't be a problem for you if you do return it. You should at least keep a photocopy of this to make the process of getting a new work permit easier.

[tefl peasant]

If there school should get the original work permit back then a teacher leaves a school, this is just one more reason why I have refused to get a work permit, even though I have all of the necessary documents to get one.

It's a power control issue.

If the school keeps your original WP, they use it as a tool as a couple schools are doing.

IMO, the school should have the photocopy and the teacher should keep the original.

This WP issue is now designed to control the foreigners. Trying to imitate Korea.

[deadlift]

tefl peasant, please explain what kind of power a school wields by holding the original of their employees' work permits.

I was under the impression that a WP is valid only for the employer stated on it, and the employer is legally required to keep the original on hand. If you change jobs, you need to apply for a new work permit. Or rather, your new employer does.

[tefl peasant]

[Jbhughes]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Andy123 -

"I forget the exact number of days, but it is a short window of time to transfer it over to your new employer. I know of people who have did this. "

-Are you aware if the previous employer is required to agree or sign or stamp or do anything as part of this process or not?
-Would all of the original documents (I mean police check, health check etc etc) be required to transfer it over to a new employer or is it a relatively 'simple' process?
-Looking at my temporary residency card, this also lists my current employer as the sponsor, do you know if your friends had to get this transferred in some way too?


Deadlift -

"I was under the impression that a WP is valid only for the employer stated on it, and the employer is legally required to keep the original on hand. If you change jobs, you need to apply for a new work permit. Or rather, your new employer does. "

Looking more closely at my work permit, it literally says 'được l�m việc tại (is permitted to work at)' followed by the name of my employer.


In addition to starting this thread, I have also had a well-known company in Vietnam that helps expats with their work permits, residency cards and other documents been contacted regarding my predicament.

According to them (I'm paraphrasing here):

-When an employee finishes with an employer they are meant to inform the labour department who subsequently cancel the work permit. The labour department is then meant to inform the immigration department who then invalidate the temporary residency card.

-Now as suggested, this would rely on all 3 parties following the correct procedure and if they all don't, I could 'get lucky' and remain with a valid temporary residency card.

-The immigration department would register the invalidility (did I just invent a word? Wait, what's my job again?!) of my card on a system which other immigration departments and border controls have access to (presumably this is what they look at on their computers when they put in your information at the border/airport).



In my own personal case, I'm certain the school would 'do it as pay back' just like Andy123 said - aside from that the school would reduce some of its umm 'expenditure' and all of the children of the people who work in those departments would probably say to daddy they miss (or are happy to be rid of) that big tay (I'm sure they are all paying customers by the way!)


Thanks again for your replies. Finally I still would really like to hear from anyone who has been through this process as to what their experience was. If anyone would prefer to p.m. me I do check my messages.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

Both the Residency cards and the Work permits are ill thought out documents.

Residency (TR and PR): these can be obtained in a number of ways, one of which is through your employer. There should be no need to have one�s employer�s name on this, but if they do get it for you then their name is on it. Think there is something on the back of this document that says that if any of the information on the document changes then the card should be returned to the issuing authority. As this is supposed to act as a visa and you can�t/shouldn�t be in country without a visa this seems quite stupid. No one hands this back to anyone, especially if they don�t have a visa.

NB: in the PIT law your definition of tax residency can change depending upon whether your address is on your residency card or not. Ahhh� there is no place on your residency card to put your address!!

WP: Not too long ago, to try and get to the bottom of the question of whom this actually belongs to, I read what I think was the appropriate law on this. My take on what it said is as follows:

� The law did contradict itself a little, but it did overwhelmingly suggest that the work permit belonged to the individual, without actually stating it.
� It was evident that when they wrote the law, they didn�t think about whom the work permit actually belonged to.

I recently attended a presentation, given by a foreign lawyer, on work permits, etc. During his Q & A I asked him the following questions:

1) Who should keep the original work permit?
2) Who does the work permit belong to?

His unconvincing answers:

1) The employee should keep the work permit and the employer should keep a copy. I asked him why and he couldn�t give a reasonable answer. He said something like �in case they need it for some reason�
2) He said the work permit belongs to the employer

I have very little confidence in his answers and one has to remember that laws in Vietnam are of very low quality and are generally enforced on an ad hoc basis.

To me, it is only logical that the work permit belongs to the employer. The employer is responsible for returning this to the issuing authority after the employee has left their employ. My take on it, is that the WP allows the employer to employ the employee for a stated position. NB: when applying for the WP through the employer you need to supply evidence that you are qualified to work in the position that that employer wants you to work in. Actually the employer is technically required to change your work permit if your position within the company changes, but they don�t generaly bother doing this. I suppose that if you worked at FV hospital and your job changed from Administrator to Doctor then correct qualifications would need to be submitted for a new work permit.



I believe an employee could be working for several companies at the same time and each company could theoretically have a work permit to employ that person. However, it is also my understanding that if one organization has already got a work permit to be allowed to employ you then the issuing agency is not really interested in issuing another organization a work permit to employ you whilst the other document is still valid. I suppose that if you were working as a doctor at one company and a teacher at another company then both companies would be required to get permission to employ you (a work permit). As there is virtually no restriction of practice in Vietnam. You are generally allowed to work for multiple employers at the same time.

I really can�t understand the logic behind some of the earlier comments in this thread. My take on this is:

If a company gets permission to employ someone (a work permit), it is good both for the employer and the employee and this gives the employer no additional rights or hold whatsoever over the employee. I would actually say it could reduce the employer's hold over the employee. IE once an employee has a work permit it is much easier to get a second one as most of the paper work has already been completed, thus making the employee more employable than someone that has never had a work permit. Having all the correct documents with correct notarizations is not as good as having a work permit as the notarizations on these documents will no longer be valid after 6 months.

Getting back to the original poster's questions:

1) Can my employer demand either documents back?

An employer can demand what they like. What you decided to do is up to you.

2) Can my employer 'cancel' either documents?

WP: They are legally obliged to inform the Department of Labor that you no longer work for them, and to return the WP. In my not so humble opinion, he work permit belongs to the company and not you. It only entitles the company to employ you and doesn�t entitle any other company to employ you. As soon as you leave the employment of the company it has no legal value. The only thing it is good for is for making it easier for your new employer to get a work permit to legally entitle them to employ you.

TR: Not sure what the legal situation is with this, but the reality is that this will not be cancelled.


3) Could I re-use either documents with a new employer?

WP: This has no validity with the new employer, but can help with getting a new WP. Photocopy will do.

TR: This is yours and has very little to do with the employer

NB: all of the above is based on my knowledge of the law, and much more importantly, what the government dpts in HCMC actually do.

[deadlift]

Thanks spycatcher, a marvellous post. Not definitive, but then we should be wary of anyone who offers definitive answers to questions about life in Vietnam.

Your post kind of confirms the impression I got during my induction at my current job, that the WP is as much a permit for my school to employ me, as it is a permit for me to be employed by them.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

Deadlift- glad you liked it.

NB: I have spoken to numerous relevant Vietnamese people about the work permit over the years and none of them seems to have ever considered who, if anyone, work permits "belong to". They see this as a strange irrelevant foreigner question.

[Jbhughes]

It seems that this ownership issue is important for many people.

Personally, I am not concerned about who owns the work permit as I'm certain that, along with my temporary residency card, it will be cancelled as soon as I inform my employer that I'm leaving.

My employer won't even agree to give me a 'grace' period before informing the relevant departments.

I can't even think of any astute questions to ask at this point.

What the hell do I do with a void temporary residency card and no visa in my passport? pack my stuff and go, hoping not to pay that much of a fine at the border/airport? could I even apply for a new visa in a travel agency at either of the big cities?

Just so there is no confusion, I do not live in HCMC or HN.

[Oh My God]

Jbhughes wrote: