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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: Visa Renewal |
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I'm curious about the process of visa renewal for English teachers in Japan. There's plenty of information about the requirements necessary to get a visa in the first place, but I have not been able to find information about RENEWING.
When you've been teaching in Japan for say, three years, what requirements do the immigration offices have for granting an extension?
Under what circumstances will they *NOT* grant an extension?
Specifically, here are a few cases I can think of, assuming that the person in the examples has a three-year work visa:
1. Somebody gets a three-year work visa. During those three years, he proceeds to do this:
Year 1: work at an eikaiwa
Year 2: no work, just study Japanese
Year 3: work at an eikaiwa again
Would he be able to get an extension in light of "taking Year 2 off?"
2. Somebody starts out at a school that CAN sponsor a visa. However, by Year 3, he is working at a school that does not have the capability to sponsor a visa. Can he still get a visa extension?
3. Somebody is employed continuously for three years, but in Years 2 and 3, his pay dropped to a very low level (like 100,000 yen a month). Will he be able to get an extension?
I'll let you guys know if I have any other renewal questions like these...
Please let me know if you think he'd get an extension in Cases 1, 2, and 3. Thanks. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Visa Renewal |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
1. Somebody gets a three-year work visa. During those three years, he proceeds to do this:
Year 1: work at an eikaiwa
Year 2: no work, just study Japanese
Year 3: work at an eikaiwa again
Would he be able to get an extension in light of "taking Year 2 off?" |
Not sure how feasible that would be; to go from working to support yourself to having zero income for a year. How would you survive? What if you got an apartment from the eikaiwa or they are acting as your guarantor? And I think that somebody at your city office would have noticed something concerning especially come the spring when they don't receive a certificate confirming your earnings for the year in order to work out how much residence tax health and health insurance you need to pay.
Besides what does study mean? Go to a school? Sit at home only occasionally looking at a textbook?
If you are serious about studying and go to school, then change to a student visa, but you'll need to prove that you have the means to pay your tuition and support yourself. If not, I don't see how you could survive unless you have a partner's income to fall back on. If you are married then change to a dependant's/spouse visa.
| Quote: |
| 2. Somebody starts out at a school that CAN sponsor a visa. However, by Year 3, he is working at a school that does not have the capability to sponsor a visa. Can he still get a visa extension? |
Assuming you're still earning enough to satisfy immigration, then there's no reason you can't self-sponor.
| Quote: |
| 3. Somebody is employed continuously for three years, but in Years 2 and 3, his pay dropped to a very low level (like 100,000 yen a month). Will he be able to get an extension? |
The guy's a knob if he takes that kind of a drop in salary and not only didn't quit, but is looking to continue on with that employer!
Unless it's because he's no longer working the hours that he started off with, in which case he can find another PT job to bring up his monthly salary to an amount that would be acceptable to immigration for them to grant you self-sponsorship. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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So then what, specifically, are the criteria that they use to determine whether an extension is granted or rejected?
Oh, and here's another case I'm curious about:
John Smith has successfully held down a teaching job for two years, 11.5 months on his Specialist in Humanities Visa. He is just about to apply for an extension when suddenly, out of the blue, he is fired out of the blue! Does that mean a renewal is denied? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Visa Renewal |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| I'm curious about the process of visa renewal for English teachers in Japan. There's plenty of information about the requirements necessary to get a visa in the first place, but I have not been able to find information about RENEWING. |
Because it is so simple and straightforward. Renewing is called extending a period of stay in the List of Necessary Documents.
http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/english/tetuduki/index.html
| Quote: |
| When you've been teaching in Japan for say, three years, what requirements do the immigration offices have for granting an extension? |
Same as for the original issuing of the visa -- you have an employer willing to sponsor you, and he fits the immigration guidelines.
One addition is to renew with PT jobs, so that essentially you self-sponsor instead of having one of your employers serve as sponsor.
| Quote: |
| Under what circumstances will they *NOT* grant an extension? |
Why the 3 hypothetical situations? Are these you and your buddies? Hypothetical situations are tough to deal with, whether here or at immigration. I'll try, though...
| Quote: |
assuming that the person in the examples has a three-year work visa:
1. Somebody gets a three-year work visa. During those three years, he proceeds to do this:
Year 1: work at an eikaiwa
Year 2: no work, just study Japanese
Year 3: work at an eikaiwa again
Would he be able to get an extension in light of "taking Year 2 off?" |
Unknown. Although he is allowed to study under a work visa, technically he is not supposed to take more than 3 months off without a valid reason. (See same link as above, Q&A sublink, question 17)
| Quote: |
| 2. Somebody starts out at a school that CAN sponsor a visa. However, by Year 3, he is working at a school that does not have the capability to sponsor a visa. Can he still get a visa extension? |
Not with that employer. Self-sponsorship, perhaps, but that's up to immigration's discretion.
| Quote: |
| 3. Somebody is employed continuously for three years, but in Years 2 and 3, his pay dropped to a very low level (like 100,000 yen a month). Will he be able to get an extension? |
How can you be self-employed continuously and have a 3-year work visa (unless it's a business manager visa)? This hypothetical is pretty weak.
Doubtful on that one, IMO, for a couple of reasons.
| Quote: |
| John Smith has successfully held down a teaching job for two years, 11.5 months on his Specialist in Humanities Visa. He is just about to apply for an extension when suddenly, out of the blue, he is fired out of the blue! Does that mean a renewal is denied? |
If he doesn't have a sponsor or the ability to self-sponsor, then I'd say it is likely he has not met the requirements, so here I'd say he would not be able to renew/extend.
Why are you so obsessed with these sorts of examples? Are you digging into law cases from a union file or something? |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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I left Japan for almost a year partway into a three year humanities visa, and started working for a different employer when I came back. It was a complete non-issue when I went to renew my visa just before it was up.
To answer the points seklarwia raised, it's easy enough to stop working for a year if you have enough money saved up, if you go and live somewhere else there's no issue with the school being your apartment guarantor, and the ward office must have received information about how much I had earned during the first part of my stay on that visa, because I got bills for the amount I owed as soon as I arrived back in Japan and registered in the area I was living in then. The same thing would happen if you just moved within Japan. You don't have to work a full year for those certificates to be issued or have that information passed on to the tax office.
As Glenski says, technically you are not supposed to be unemployed for more than three months on a work visa, but I have never heard of anyone being called on this. If you were to enroll full time at a language school though you would most likely be expected to have a student visa.
For the third scenario (Glenski, there was nothing about being self-employed, or has it been edited since you posted?), I'm assuming Rooster means cutting work hours to the level where he/she would only be earning 100,000 yen or so. In that case it's unlikely you would get the extension, because although there doesn't seem to be a set guideline, I doubt that Immigration would consider that a livable wage. You would need to boost your earnings back up again by the time you came to renew the visa. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
So then what, specifically, are the criteria that they use to determine whether an extension is granted or rejected?
Oh, and here's another case I'm curious about:
John Smith has successfully held down a teaching job for two years, 11.5 months on his Specialist in Humanities Visa. He is just about to apply for an extension when suddenly, out of the blue, he is fired out of the blue! Does that mean a renewal is denied? |
As for this, of course his renewal is denied- no job equals no working visa. That would be really bad luck, but if John wanted to stay in Japan, he could start looking for a new job on a tourist permit again and then start the visa application from scratch.
Basically the criteria for renewing a work visa are that you have a full (or several part) time job(s) that is paying a living wage/salary (you need to be earning around 200,000 yen, although this is not set in stone), and that you provide Immigration with the necessary documentation, which includes a copy of your contract, info about your employer's finances if you are changing to a new employer, and a few other items which you should find with an internet search or by phoning Immigration. It's very simple if you are staying with the same employer, you need a few more documents if you are changing employers. I renewed work visas several times before switching to a spouse visa- basically if you fulfill the above criteria you are in, provided you haven't been committing felonies.
It's really quite straightforward, as long as you have a full time job (or a bunch of part time jobs which give you a full time salary) at the time you apply to renew. Which of the situations are you in? If none of them, why the concern for what would happen in those cases? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| To answer the points seklarwia raised, it's easy enough to stop working for a year if you have enough money saved up, if you go and live somewhere else there's no issue with the school being your apartment guarantor, and the ward office must have received information about how much I had earned during the first part of my stay on that visa, because I got bills for the amount I owed as soon as I arrived back in Japan and registered in the area I was living in then. The same thing would happen if you just moved within Japan. You don't have to work a full year for those certificates to be issued or have that information passed on to the tax office. |
True but in your case, you left the country so were not sitting around Japan unemployed for more than 3 months, which is more what I'm getting from Roosters (perhaps) hypothetical situation. When you registered they would have seen your passport and known instantly that you had not been in the country. And I'm sure that if you hadn't informed your old city ward that you were no longer at your old address, then it would have been a straight forward exercise to establish that you had indeed left the country since all re-entry permit holders have to fill out departure cards when they leave the country.
If you had just quit your job at the end of the first year and stuck around however, by the end of the 2nd year there would be no earnings certificate from any employer or one with only a minscule amount. And not earning for such a long period of time, is bound to have somebody asking questions.
Besides with the current economic climate, many people are eating into their savings or even taking out loans to set up here, so I'm not convinced that most single people would have the savings to cover all the potential moving costs and support themselves here without a job after a single year at an eikaiwa.
@Rooster:
I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Renewal of visas is really quite simple and pretty much exactly the same the world over. If you're doing as it says on the tin, are not a financial liability to the state and are making the legally required tax contributions, then you get the renewal. If you have a work visa, you should be working in the field specified by the visa. If have a student visa you should be a student. If your circumstances change, you should inform immigration, and so on. If you are not doing what the visa you were granted was intended for or you do something not permitted by your visa (and haven't been granted special permission by immigration) then you risk being turned down for a renewal or, in the rare instances you're confronted before renewal time, losing your visa. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Definitely agree that Rooster is way overthinking this.
Basically if someone has the money saved to not work for a year, they have the money saved. It's not impossible, even if it's not the situation for most people.
When I arrived back in Japan, I don't recall showing my passport at the new ward office when I registered there- just my still-valid ARC. Immigration would not have communicated to my ward office that I was not in Japan as I left on a re-entry permit- in fact I don't think there is any communication between Immigration and local offices even if you leave and cancel your visa, this is one of the reasons they want to change the system and have it all done (card-issuing etc) by Immigration in the future.
No questions were asked at any point regarding my lack of earnings, and Immigration didn't blink an eyelid when I showed up at Narita after close to a year of very obviously not working in Japan, so I wouldn't expect issues when remaining in Japan and therefore not attracting the attention of Immigration at all. There just isn't the communication between the offices to make this an issue. Can you imagine a tax office worker bothering to follow-up on why someone only had earnings for half a year two years in a row and going as far as making it an issue with Immigration? I can't. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: |
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First of all guys, thanks for your help. That's useful information.
| seklarwia wrote: |
@Rooster:
I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. |
| Apsara wrote: |
| Definitely agree that Rooster is way overthinking this. |
However, I am not overthinking this or making a mountain out of a molehill. I am trying to make an informed decision about whether or not to move to Japan or return to Korea, and need to figure out how flexible the Specialist in Humanities visa is. Visas and the rights that go with them are a very important thing to me, because I am an unorthodox fellow who tends to do things an unorthodox way, so restrictions and obscure rules that have no effect on "ordinary" people would profoundly impact me in certain scenarios.
You see, Korea has recently introduced the F-2-7 visa, which I could get quite easily in just one year. It is an excellent visa and allows near-unlimited rights. It is only available to certain select people who meet a high bar in terms of qualifications, but fortunately, I score 78 points of the 80 necessary and it would be quite easy for me to get if I did a few quick, trivial things to raise my score 2 points.
However, if all things were equal, I'd still rather live in Japan than Korea.
So what I'm trying to do is find out how the Specialist in Humanities visa stacks up against the F-2-7.
If the Specialist in Humanities visa is reasonably comparable to the F-2-7 in terms of rights and privileges, then I'll definitely pick Japan. However, if the Specialist in Humanities Visa is essentially "you teach English full-time or else you have to leave," then forget it -- I'd have much more freedom on the F-2-7.
Picking which of two countries to move to based on visa regulations is not a decision to be made lightly, and probing questions about visas are an essential proactive step which newcomers should always ask. Visas have an extremely profound impact on a foreigner's enjoyment and possibilities in a country. I have learned that the hard way in both Korea (prior to the F-2-7's introduction this year) and Taiwan. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| For the third scenario (Glenski, there was nothing about being self-employed, or has it been edited since you posted?), I'm assuming Rooster means cutting work hours to the level where he/she would only be earning 100,000 yen or so. In that case it's unlikely you would get the extension |
I misread that. Sorry. I also agree that showing salary of only 100,000 is highly unlikely to give immigration cause to renew the visa. Moreover, though, how can someone actually live on such wages in the first place?!
| Rooster wrote: |
| However, I am not overthinking this or making a mountain out of a molehill. I am trying to make an informed decision about whether or not to move to Japan or return to Korea, and need to figure out how flexible the Specialist in Humanities visa is. |
First of all, thanks for not answering my question about what your situation is! I mean, really! You have left some of us in suspense here about what these hypothetical situations mean. Can you possibly be in all of them?
As for the "flexibility" of the Humanities visa, it sounds like the Korean one is better. Flexibility in Japan amounts to the following:
1. With a reentry permit you can leave the country and retain the validity of your visa as long as it is good. Leave when there are 2 years left on it, and that's your limit. Leave without a reentry permit, and you forfeit the visa.
2. Humanities visa covers quite a range of work situations, not just teaching English. What did you want to do with it other than teach English?
3. Self-sponsorship. I've described this already, but just wanted to make sure you see the flexibility here.
That's about it. Japan is the land of case-by-case scenarios, and immigration has plenty of guidelines, not necessarily hard and fast rules that they follow. Plus, some immigration offices/officers will understand those guidelines differently. The rules themselves are not "obscure". |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| First of all, thanks for not answering my question about what your situation is! I mean, really! You have left some of us in suspense here about what these hypothetical situations mean. Can you possibly be in all of them? |
Well no, I'm not in any of them right now. They're hypothetical situations that model real life problems I might encounter.
Essentially, with regard to renewals, I'm worried about disrupting visa continuity because visa continuity is required to eventually reach PR, something that I someday hope to have in either Japan or Korea someday. I'm not yet sure how I'll like living in Japan, but ten years is already a heck of a long time to wait for PR, and I don't want to double that number by ruining my visa continuity by failing to get a renewal. If I were to move to Japan and have three successive three-year Specialist in Humanities renewals and then screw up in the ninth year, well, I'd have to start all over again.
Scenario #1 (taking a year off teaching while still holding the Specialist in Humanities visa) would be relevant if I took a year off to finish a master's degree or intensive Japanese language study and didn't want to disrupt my visa continuity or my right to work part-time. Besides, the student visa is ridiculously hard to get -- I have seen in multiple sources that you are supposed to have 3,000,000 yen in the bank AFTER paying tuition -- yeah, because I just have $40,000 sitting around AFTER paying grad school tuition... So that's why I asked about Scenario #1. So yes, since I don't have unlimited, vast reserves of millions of yen, I might use my Specialist in Humanities visa to study, as per Scenario #1.
Scenario #2 (coming to an extension point with a school that can't sponsor me) would be relevant if I were extremely unlucky -- thought the school was able to sponsor a visa, but it actually wasn't. However, thankfully, you guys have said this would be unlikely to matter as long as my income were high enough.
Scenario #3 (plummeting income) would be relevant if I either simply could not find enough hours to make 200K yen (basically exactly what is happening to the market in Taiwan right now), or if I saved up a considerable amount of money or were living in the (cheap) sticks and only wanted to work part-time.
Scenario #4 (extreme bad luck in losing my job right before a renewal), well, I asked that because in this world, $#!+ happens. I wouldn't want to lose all my progress towards PR in Year 9 just because some eikaiwa boss decided to can me at an inconvenient time.
So basically, there you go -- if I like Japan, I'll be interested in pursuing PR, and PR requires ten CONTINUOUS years. Therefore, renewals and the potential things that could result in them being rejected are an essential part of planning. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Well in the case of your last scenario, you and your employer shouldn't be waiting until the last minute to renew your visa (regardless of whether its a 1 year or 3 year visa).
My visa runs out towards the end of March (I've only had one year visas thus far... something else you should consider since it's up to immigration what length of visa you get and not your employer), but last year my employer had sent me all the paper work I needed including a completed renewal application form that I just had to sign in January and was trying to get me to renew sooner rather than later (the renewal runs from the expiry of the old visa regardless of whether you renew a day before expiry or a month+ in advance).
So you should push your employer to give you your paper work a couple of months in advance, get your residence tax payment record from your ward office and renew a good time in advance. That way even, if you lose your job just before your old visa expires, you already have the renewal which is yours alone and not something that can be retracted by your employer as is the case in Korea. So you can hunt for a new job safe in the knowledge that you are not about to overstay.
If your employer starts stalling or refusing to sort out your renewal paperwork in advance, then perhaps you should take that as a sign that they are intending to let you go and start job hunting then just renew using contract(s) from your new employer(s). |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
Well in the case of your last scenario, you and your employer shouldn't be waiting until the last minute to renew your visa (regardless of whether its a 1 year or 3 year visa).
My visa runs out towards the end of March (I've only had one year visas thus far... something else you should consider since it's up to immigration what length of visa you get and not your employer), but last year my employer had sent me all the paper work I needed including a completed renewal application form that I just had to sign in January and was trying to get me to renew sooner rather than later (the renewal runs from the expiry of the old visa regardless of whether you renew a day before expiry or a month+ in advance).
So you should push your employer to give you your paper work a couple of months in advance, get your residence tax payment record from your ward office and renew a good time in advance. That way even, if you lose your job just before your old visa expires, you already have the renewal which is yours alone and not something that can be retracted by your employer as is the case in Korea. So you can hunt for a new job safe in the knowledge that you are not about to overstay.
If your employer starts stalling or refusing to sort out your renewal paperwork in advance, then perhaps you should take that as a sign that they are intending to let you go and start job hunting then just renew using contract(s) from your new employer(s). |
Thank you. That's very useful advice. So basically, if I'm very conscientious and get the paperwork together two months in advance, I can do that. There need not be any "Oops! I don't have a job!" surprises, I suppose. That's good.
However, I've got to say, for now, Korea is looking like a wiser choice than Japan. I think the best strategy would be to go to Korea, get an F-2-7, work on my credentials there and get PR there (should only take four years under the new regulations), and then see if Japan has eased up its PR requirements at that point.
Because at present, it basically seems like "you must work full-time at an eikaiwa (or another job, if you can even find one) for ten straight years, never dropping below 180K yen a month for any significant amount of time, or you won't get renewed, your continuity will be broken, and you won't get PR." Not exactly the kind of situation I want to be in for TEN YEARS of my life... |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| Because at present, it basically seems like "you must work full-time at an eikaiwa (or another job, if you can even find one) for ten straight years, never dropping below 180K yen a month for any significant amount of time, or you won't get renewed, your continuity will be broken, and you won't get PR." Not exactly the kind of situation I want to be in for TEN YEARS of my life... |
Of course you have to do what's right for you, but I wanted to point out one misunderstanding on your part.
In order to obtain PR, you need to be in Japan for a minimum of 10 continuous years while working at least 5 of those years. For example, many of my Asian friends (mainly Korean, some Chinese, and some Myanmarese) have gained their PR by attending Japanese language school for 1 or 2 years, followed by 4 years of university and 5 years of working.
The visas you held/hold are more-or-less important, but Immigration will be focusing mainly on your ARC and the original issuing date (交付年月日）stamped on the back.
There are other ways to get PR without having to stay for a full 10 years, but that's a different story. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| the4th2001 wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
| Because at present, it basically seems like "you must work full-time at an eikaiwa (or another job, if you can even find one) for ten straight years, never dropping below 180K yen a month for any significant amount of time, or you won't get renewed, your continuity will be broken, and you won't get PR." Not exactly the kind of situation I want to be in for TEN YEARS of my life... |
Of course you have to do what's right for you, but I wanted to point out one misunderstanding on your part.
In order to obtain PR, you need to be in Japan for a minimum of 10 continuous years while working at least 5 of those years. For example, many of my Asian friends (mainly Korean, some Chinese, and some Myanmarese) have gained their PR by attending Japanese language school for 1 or 2 years, followed by 4 years of university and 5 years of working.
The visas you held/hold are more-or-less important, but Immigration will be focusing mainly on your ARC and the original issuing date (交付年月日）stamped on the back. |
That is a good point.
I guess the visa system isn't as restrictive as I had thought if you can change your visa status to suit your new activity without resetting the clock on PR.
Okay, here's a question -- do the five working years out of the ten-year total have to be continuous, or is it okay if they are punctuated with stints on a student visa?
And do the five working years have to be on the same type of working visa?
For instance, do you think this scenario could work for PR purposes?
Year 1: eikaiwa on a Specialist in Humanities visa
Year 2: language study on a student visa
Year 3: eikaiwa on a Specialist in Humanities visa
Year 4: attend an IT college on a student visa
Year 5: continue to attend said IT college on a student visa, then graduate
Year 5: IT worker
Year 6: IT worker
Year 7: attend grad school for IT on a student visa
Year 8: attend grad school for IT on a student visa
Year 9: IT worker
Year 10: IT worker
Do you think that would be okay for PR continuity purposes?
Although definitely not as convenient as Korea's F-2-7 (with its fast track to F-5 PR), I could see living like that -- I'd just need to go to the immigration office and file for a change prior to starting a new activity. Doable, at least in theory. |
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