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Language May Help Create Not Just Convey Thoughts & Feel
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Language May Help Create Not Just Convey Thoughts & Feel Reply with quote

ScienceDaily (Nov. 17, 2010)

"The language we speak may influence not only our thoughts, but our implicit preferences as well. That's the finding of a study by psychologists at Harvard University, who found that bilingual individuals' opinions of different ethnic groups were affected by the language in which they took a test examining their biases and predilections.
The paper appears in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.
"Charlemagne is reputed to have said that to speak another language is to possess another soul," says co-author Oludamini Ogunnaike, a graduate student at Harvard. "This study suggests that language is much more than a medium for expressing thoughts and feelings. Our work hints that language creates and shapes our thoughts and feelings as well."
Implicit attitudes, positive or negative associations people may be unaware they possess, have been shown to predict behavior towards members of social groups. Recent research has shown that these attitudes are quite malleable, susceptible to factors such as the weather, popular culture -- or, now, by the language people speak.
"Can we shift something as fundamental as what we like and dislike by changing the language in which our preferences are elicited?" asks co-author Mahzarin R. Banaji, the Richard Clarke Cabot Professor of Social Ethics at Harvard. "If the answer is yes, that gives more support to the idea that language is an important shaper of attitudes."
Ogunnaike, Banaji, and Yarrow Dunham, now at the University of California, Merced, used the well-known Implicit Association Test (IAT), where participants rapidly categorize words that flash on a computer screen or are played through headphones. The test gives participants only a fraction of a second to categorize words, not enough to think about their answers.
"The IAT bypasses a large part of conscious cognition and taps into something we're not aware of and can't easily control," Banaji says.
The researchers administered the IAT in two different settings: once in Morocco, with bilinguals in Arabic and French, and again in the U.S. with Latinos who speak both English and Spanish.
In Morocco, participants who took the IAT in Arabic showed greater preference for other Moroccans. When they took the test in French, that difference disappeared. Similarly, in the U.S., participants who took the test in Spanish showed a greater preference for other Hispanics. But again, in English, that preference disappeared.
"It was quite shocking to see that a person could take the same test, within a brief period of time, and show such different results," Ogunnaike says. "It's like asking your friend if he likes ice cream in English, and then turning around and asking him again in French and getting a different answer."
In the Moroccan test, participants saw "Moroccan" names (such as Hassan or Fatimah) or "French" names (such as Jean or Marie) flash on a monitor, along with words that are "good" (such as happy or nice) or "bad" (such as hate or mean). Participants might press one key when they see a Moroccan name or a good word, and press another when they see a French name or a bad word. Then the key assignments are switched so that "Moroccan" and "bad" share the same key and "French" and "good" share the other.
Linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf first posited in the 1930s that language is so powerful that it can determine thought. Mainstream psychology has taken the more skeptical view that while language may affect thought processes, it doesn't influence thought itself. This new study suggests that Whorf's idea, when not caricatured, may generate interesting hypotheses that researchers can continue to test.
"These results challenge our views of attitudes as stable," Banaji says. "There still remain big questions about just how fixed or flexible they are, and language may provide a window through which we will learn about their nature."
Ogunnaike, Dunham, and Banaji's work was supported by Harvard's Weatherhead Center for International Affairs and the Mellon Mays Foundation."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101103111206.htm
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killthebuddha



Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 144
Location: Assigned to the Imperial Gourd

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Language May Help Create Not Just Convey Thoughts & Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
ScienceDaily (Nov. 17, 2010)

"The language we speak may influence not only our thoughts, but our implicit preferences as well. That's the finding of a study by psychologists at Harvard University, who found that bilingual individuals' opinions of different ethnic groups were affected by the language in which they took a test examining their biases and predilections.


Thanks johnslat,

This manages to co-mingle my Sunday funnies, crosswords, and "go-to-meetin's."

To see just how "true" are the claims and findings of your post (apart from the Harvard stamp of approval, of course, and the various "scientific" studies, etc., etc.), and for everyone's edification, consider these (re: Edward Bernays and his uncle Freud):

http://www.sprword.com/videos/centuryoftheself/

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Edward+Bernays+and+the+Art+of+Public+Manipulation+&aq=f

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/bernprop.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Propaganda/Propaganda_Bernays.html

--ktb
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear ktb,

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.

Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware of the identity of their fellow members in the inner cabinet.

They govern us by their qualities of natural leadership, their ability to supply needed ideas and by their key position in the social structure. Whatever attitude one chooses toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons-a trifling fraction of our hundred and twenty million-who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world."

Sounds right to me - of course, I may be being manipulated by the wire-pullers who wrote this stuff
Very Happy Very Happy

Regards,
John
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killthebuddha



Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 144
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:




Sounds right to me - of course, I may be being manipulated by the wire-pullers who wrote this stuff
Very Happy Very Happy

Regards,
John


Yes,

I am as "dis-informed" as anyone, and freedom's just another word for nuthin' left to lose.

Rolling Eyes
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
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Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear ktb,

Come to think on it, don't we, to some degree, at least, do the same to our students?

"their minds molded, their tastes formed, their ideas suggested, largely by"

US.

Oh, I realize that all that takes time, but after all, most people are in school for many years.

Regards,
John the wire-puller
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Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1613
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear ktb,

Come to think on it, don't we, to some degree, at least, do the same to our students?

"their minds molded, their tastes formed, their ideas suggested, largely by"

US.

Oh, I realize that all that takes time, but after all, most people are in school for many years.

Regards,
John the wire-puller


Dear Johnslat

I have excellent French and German teachers, but they really don�t mould my mind, form tastes, suggest ideas or pull wires. They teach me French and German and then give me too much homework. Discuss.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
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Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Hod,

And have you never had a teacher/teachers who made such an impression on you that you've never forgotten him/her/them?

I hope you have - I have, and I know that "to some degree, at least" they influenced me in many ways (including my choice of profession.)

Regards,
John
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killthebuddha



Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 144
Location: Assigned to the Imperial Gourd

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear ktb,

Come to think on it, don't we, to some degree, at least, do the same to our students?

"their minds molded, their tastes formed, their ideas suggested, largely by"

US.

Oh, I realize that all that takes time, but after all, most people are in school for many years.

Regards,
John the wire-puller


Dear John the leg-puller,

Certainly not. And if I "believed" that minds could be molded, then I'd have to try to break the molds. "The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." I didn't want to get into the absurdities of the language of the claims of your original post, so I reverted to an example of what has already happened when certain people manipulated others into believing in things(?!) like "implicit attitudes," "social groups," "implicit preferences," "something as fundamental as what we like and dislike," and all the other hogwash. Some mathematicians may still cling to their Platonism, but must this sort of still-born objectivism (metaphysical, not Ayn Rand's) permeate every aspect of life to further render us undifferentiated, static and stupid? Must we swallow whole these new or fashionable categories of someone's thought, and that just because they come from Harvard or claim to be science?

Honestly, when I read something like,"Linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf first posited in the 1930s that language is so powerful that it can determine thought," I become almost certain that, before 1930, no boy ever dreamed of finding riches on a "Treasure Island," and no Chancery court ever was a "Bleak House." The trick, of course, is to distinguish "language" from "thought" or "attitude," the modern equivalent of separating angels from pinheads. (Oh--that was good.) These are fools games upon which great careers are built. But...is there still room for sarcasm, or does the vacuum or ether in which these "realities" float, and through which they exert their force and influence, not support such?

No matter. I'll bite.

"Can we shift something as fundamental as what we like and dislike by changing the language in which our preferences are elicited?" asks co-author Mahzarin R. Banaji, the Richard Clarke Cabot Professor of Social Ethics at Harvard. "If the answer is yes, that gives more support to the idea that language is an important shaper of attitudes."

Um, Yes? In fact, I'll have one of those and two of the other. Ooh...that IS scrumptious. And donchya know, my idea (that language is an important shaper, and not just of attitudes, but of lotsa things) has been demanding more support lately. Thank you Harvard. Oh! I just never knew. I mean it never even occurred to me.

"These results challenge our views of attitudes as stable," Banaji says. "There still remain big questions about just how fixed or flexible they are, and language may provide a window through which we will learn about their nature."

Don't I know it. My attitudes feel all wobbly. (Or maybe I resent my attitudes for insisting that they be regarded as stable?) (Or...and what's more likely...my attitudes resent me because I've been objectifying them.) (What's that? I only have one attitude, but collectively we all have many attitudes? Well, I hope they'll study mine. Maybe if I volunteer to be a part of their control group...) I hope the experts have their answers soon. After all, they're the ones with the necessary language for that window. Or is the language the window? No...wait........yes.....................................................................................................Language (any?) / may be / the window that tells me / the nature of my attitudes. (I hope it isn't French. There's too much spittle, and the food, while tasty, always seems so small.)

There! I've got it! Itsa a darned sight better than Chomsky's "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." Oh, I know. He was trying to make a different point.

So no, John. Heaven forbid that I should try to influence anybody. I'll go out of my way not to. And I think we'd all agree that we're all better for it. I mean, who do I think I am? Harvard?

--ktb
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Johnslat's post:

Quote:
"Can we shift something as fundamental as what we like and dislike by changing the language in which our preferences are elicited?" asks co-author Mahzarin R. Banaji, the Richard Clarke Cabot Professor of Social Ethics at Harvard. "If the answer is yes, that gives more support to the idea that language is an important shaper of attitudes."

This quote makes me think of the many Japanese students I had in the past. Not the ones whose hobbies were driving and �learning English� but some of the others who were a bit more thoughtful. They said that learning such a different language allowed them to take on a different persona which is sometimes why they also wanted to take an English name as well. Some felt they could be more �extrovert� when speaking English and undergo a change of personality. How true this really was I can�t say for sure but they had the desire to be �different�.While this is an explicit understanding of how another language might change you, I can imagine it would manifest itself in implicit ways too, in terms of preferences and likes/ dislikes.

I�d always assumed the degree to which you might be affected by a change of language would be determined by how different the language was from your native language. That wasn�t the case for the English/ Spanish test though. English is perhaps the only language where you don�t have to worry about the formal and informal �you� and students of mixed nationalities have told me they find that quite liberating � that they don�t have to worry about the status of the relationship. I asked Germans what they do if they�re really not sure how to address someone (usually it�s clear). They said they found ways to avoid using �you�, perhaps by using the passive. However, it�s also been commented on by various people I�ve talked to how this makes English an �impersonal� language lacking warmth.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear klb,

But . . . but isn't the purpose of your posting to try to influence the way I (might) think about language?

I eschew absolutism (I do love that word: eschew.) so, to say that language has absolutely NO effect on how our minds are molded, how our tastes are formed, how out ideas are suggested seems to me as wrong as saying that language has a profound effect on all three.

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/08/what-s-in-a-word.html#

http://blog.longnow.org/2009/06/16/does-language-affect-thought-a-new-look-at-an-old-debate/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/22/new-nicaraguan-sign-language-shows-how-language-affects-thought/

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/051226_langbrainfrm.htm

http://ed-matters.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-language-affects-thought.html

http://www.comparative-psychology.de/pdf/LevinsonCognition2002.pdf

I'll close with a quote from one of the above sources:

"Who knows whether any of this is true, but it is certainly thought-provoking. It indicates how much of what we find �natural� or �intuitive� is actually based in culture."

Regards,
John
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: Language May Help Create Not Just Convey Thoughts & Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:

In the Moroccan test, participants saw "Moroccan" names (such as Hassan or Fatimah) or "French" names (such as Jean or Marie) flash on a monitor, along with words that are "good" (such as happy or nice) or "bad" (such as hate or mean). Participants might press one key when they see a Moroccan name or a good word, and press another when they see a French name or a bad word. Then the key assignments are switched so that "Moroccan" and "bad" share the same key and "French" and "good" share the other.


Maybe I am misinterpreting this, but it seems the test was designed to get the result. When you match one with "good" and one with "bad" and then switch, isn't it given that the results with also switch?

I am not sure I can believe that language shapes our thoughts, but it most definitely shape our expression of thoughts. Also, the ability to interpret the same ideas differently in different languages could make the same ideas take on different meanings. In the end, can we ever convey with 100% clarity the concepts in our brain.

Also, speaking in different languages implies speaking with a different demographic, or language group. Some of us might not be so eager to express some ideas as clearly or forcefully with some language groups. So, for example, when discussing Sino-Japanese relations with English-speaking co-workers I am more open and forceful with my ideas than when discussing the same topic with my Chinese-speaking in-laws.

It is an interesting idea. I think the question is which comes first, the concept or the language to express it?
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killthebuddha



Joined: 06 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
Dear klb,

But . . . but isn't the purpose of your posting to try to influence the way I (might) think about language?


Dear Johnslat,

No. And to try to narrow and characterize my opinion of what was presented, and then convert that into the proposed premise, must be leg-pulling of the most outrageous sort.

johnslat wrote:
I eschew absolutism (I do love that word: eschew.) so, to say that language has absolutely NO effect on how our minds are molded, how our tastes are formed, how out ideas are suggested seems to me as wrong as saying that language has a profound effect on all three.


I'm hurt. Didn't you read my early response? Didn't you check out the link I provided? The point of these was to show the harm that has already come from those who have manipulated language (through misrepresentation, over-simplification, etc., etc.) for their own purposes. The result was that minds (those who "believed" and "bought into" the "pronouncements") WERE molded, tastes WERE formed, and ideas WERE suggested. (Maybe you DID watch the clip? Now I've gone from being hurt to being confused.)

johnslat wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/08/what-s-in-a-word.html#

http://blog.longnow.org/2009/06/16/does-language-affect-thought-a-new-look-at-an-old-debate/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/06/22/new-nicaraguan-sign-language-shows-how-language-affects-thought/

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/051226_langbrainfrm.htm

http://ed-matters.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-language-affects-thought.html


These links are poor sound-bite press releases, and the "Sapir�Whorf hypothesis" they variously reference is hardly recognizable. I challenge you to look into the matter more deeply. This might be a good place to begin, and don't be thrown by the title; the author is a Whorf devotee, and an American Indian who was drawn by Whorf's consideration of the Hopi (see your links):

http://www.enformy.com/dma-Chap7.htm

As I was trying to say, if your linguists want or hope to get anywhere with their simple, linear, categorical, Newtonian-mechanical, ambiguous and ultimately empty / meaningless (or painfully obvious?) pronouncement that "language may influence thought" or "preferences," all they need is for people to mindlessly acquiesce. As my original link demonstrated, as I originally tried to point out, that's what often happens. The only novelty here, if there is any, is that they've managed to switch the cart for the horse. But it's a dead horse. As such, it can't complain about being beaten.


johnslat wrote:
I'll close with a quote from one of the above sources:

"Who knows whether any of this is true, but it is certainly thought-provoking. It indicates how much of what we find �natural� or �intuitive� is actually based in culture."

Regards,
John


Again, whether "any of what?" is true? "Thought-provoking?" Sure. The mental-masturbatory nature of the premise, as posited, is certainly provocative. But as they say, even bad press is good. I'm sure they'll get the Nobel. As for what is "based in culture," did anyone ever think, to the extent "culture" and "language" are separable, that these don't "influence" or even "form" each other? What's the novelty here? Where's the revolution? The fire? Smoke? (Yes, thanks). As for "much of what we find natural or intuitive," let's end with something light, pleasing and palatable...my favorite Wittgenstein anecdote re: what "seems" "natural." (Skip to 3:50)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP2jpVNFLdw

Cheers,

--ktb

p.s. If you really want to know my opinion, and for something that makes a lot more sense, look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg6OTTbKsmQ&feature=related

Laughing
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
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Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear ktb,

Oh, I like this guy:

"One of Whorf's most important insights that get lost in the Whorf Hypothesis Hoax is the very real possibility that some of our least questioned assumptions about reality, including 'time,' 'space,' and 'matter,' are more like verbal hallucinations born of a noun-happy family of languages that look at the world in this way, rather than deep 'intuitions' of the 'really real' state of reality. That is, we all live our everyday habitual lives as if these notions are real, and not just part of our language and its way of helping us 'see' reality. We have seen how 'time' in our normal sense is such an hallucination, and according to Heisenberg was abolished by Einstein's mathematics. It is only the existence of languages other than those of the Indo-European family that can bring in this counter-evidence to a worldview logic grown wild and considering itself "true" in the absence of just such exceptions."

Many thanks for the link.

Regards,
John
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killthebuddha



Joined: 06 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear johnslat,

"Pray God us keep / From Single vision & Newton's sleep!"

I knew you'd like him...what's not to? And at least there's something here TO like and to think about and appreciate. So thank you, for your original post and your dogged determination. (I knew that you knew that there had to be more to it than met the eye, even if all the good and juicy bits had been left out.)

In honor of the estimable Mr. Whorf and all amateur enthusiasts everywhere, and with thanks to Mr. Dan Moonhawk Alford who perhaps isn't quite yet ready to allow the experts ruin the world...

Look what they've done to my song, Ma
Look what they've done to my song
Well it's the only thing I could do half right
And it's turning out all wrong, Ma
Look what they've done to my song

Look what they've done to my brain, Ma
Look what they've done to my brain
Well they picked it like a chicken bone
And I think I'm half insane, Ma
Look what they've done to my song

I wish I could find a good book to live in
Wish I could find a good book
Well, if I could find a real good book
I'd never have to come out and look at
What they've done to my song

La la la...
Look what they've done to my song

--ktb
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gaijinalways



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I am ready to be molded!


From Johnslat's post:

Quote:
"Can we shift something as fundamental as what we like and dislike by changing the language in which our preferences are elicited?" asks co-author Mahzarin R. Banaji, the Richard Clarke Cabot Professor of Social Ethics at Harvard. "If the answer is yes, that gives more support to the idea that language is an important shaper of attitudes."

artemisia posted
Quote:
This quote makes me think of the many Japanese students I had in the past. Not the ones whose hobbies were driving and �learning English� but some of the others who were a bit more thoughtful. They said that learning such a different language allowed them to take on a different persona which is sometimes why they also wanted to take an English name as well. Some felt they could be more �extrovert� when speaking English and undergo a change of personality. How true this really was I can�t say for sure but they had the desire to be �different�.While this is an explicit understanding of how another language might change you, I can imagine it would manifest itself in implicit ways too, in terms of preferences and likes/ dislikes.


I think the different persona in Japan is often something many Japanese strongly desire as they feel a need to escape the cultural binds that many Japanese feel strangled by. Strangely, I haven't seen large differences in the way most of my students express themselves in English, except when they are extremely slow to even acknowledge a question. Wink

wangdaning posted
Quote:
It is an interesting idea. I think the question is which comes first, the concept or the language to express it?


Let me think about it....... Razz ...some more...
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