Job Discussion Forums

[Rooster_2006]

What happens if a guy/gal with a master's degree, or someone with ten years of TEFL experience applies to a super-low-rung 190,000 yen eikaiwa position?

Do they hire him/her because he/she is the best-qualified, or do they consider that person "overqualified" and throw the resume into the trash?

I'm currently looking for a replacement for my low-rung position in Kaohsiung, Taiwan, and we've had twelve applicants in just a few days, some with master's degrees and 10 years+ of experience. It's insane.

I have a hunch that competition in Japan is similar, even for mere scraps of jobs, but seriously, do low-rung eikaiwa hire these guys with MAs and donkeys years of experience, or do they see them as overqualified?

[jcook77]

Generally speaking, eikaiwas don't seem to be looking for overqualified applicants, and thus those people would be wasting their time. The schools usually target younger, inexperienced teachers coming over for the first time or at the very least people who aren't coming in expecting more money because of a Master's, etc.

In Japan, most eikaiwa salaries are about the same (roughly 250,000-280,000 yen/mo.), so someone overqualified would do well to apply at a university or a private HS/JHS. It wouldn't make any sense for a person with impressive credentials to apply at an eikaiwa unless they were truly looking for a chance to work at a conversation school. That said, I'm sure a few well-qualified people throw their resume out to every company around that's hiring, so for them it's a case of throwing themselves out there and seeing who bites.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[Glenski]

The average salary nowadays in eikaiwa has gone down, so I would estimate it is closer to 200,000-250,000 yen/month.

Due to the flooded market here in the past few years, it's hard to say whether people with "insane" qualifications are overlooked. As usual, a safe answer would be to say "case by case". I have not seen a pattern of reports yet to say whether eikaiwa employers are weeding out applicants based more on their naivete and greenness or on their actual qualifications. What would you do if you got 50-100 applications for one eikaiwa job? Case by case.

Remember, that a lot of candidates are hired on the basis of their personality and apparent lesson-planning knowledge in a demo lesson (and how they carry it out), too.

[Mr_Monkey]

It all depends on the eikaiwa, really, doesn't it? And no, I don't buy into the hierarchy of teaching jobs that is often tacitly assumed in discussions such as these.

I know a couple of places that I'd be quite happy to go back to - very professional and fair establishments with good people working for them. The fact that I have a master's degree makes me more attractive to them and ensures that I do a better job. A lot of university jobs don't seem that appealing to me either - teaching very large classes filled with unmotivated Japanese kids (18-19 is a kid, imo) does not sound like fun to me. That doesn't mean I won't do it, but for me, teaching has never really been about the money so over a certain threshold, I will pick and choose what jobs I do based on other criteria like how much I enjoy working there rather than how much they pay me.

However, I don't have to worry about rent, which makes a big difference to my financial requirements.

[benshi]

The eikaiwa where I work gets resumes from "overqualified" people on a daily basis. We look at them, of course, but the fact that they do have credentials which qualify them for higher level positions raises the red flag that they may be only looking for visa sponsorship and a "foot in the door" and they'll jump ship in a heartbeat as soon as something better comes along. In addition, it has been my experience that people highly trained in ESL/EFL with a lot of experience get bored or become frustrated with eikaiwa classes rather quickly. For someone with a MA or PhD, doing "Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes" and crawling around on the floor with a bunch of 5 year olds can get pretty old pretty fast.

There are exceptions, though. As was said earlier--case by case!

[Tuan]

[PG_Tips]

[Mr_Monkey]

Well, yes, I indicated as much. However, I teach because I love it. Getting paid for it is a bonus, frankly - I am soon to start a class where I volunteer my services. I could do other things - I have experience in the financial sector and a strong background in IT - but that's not as much fun. I did my master's because it made me a better, more flexible teacher.

I find it odd how many people are money-oriented in Japanese EFL. It's an interesting phenomenon, as I haven't encountered it in the UK (the wages are a joke there and there are very few full-time jobs, let alone job security), and the money in Japanese EFL left a long time ago. Naturally though (and I indicated this in a previous post) there is a minimum wage/salary that I would be prepared to accept. I see that wages have been depressed in Japan by the surfeit of teachers for the available jobs. Personally, I don't think anyone should be applying for 190,000円/month jobs. It should be noted though, that this works out to a salary of over �17,000 a year, given current exchange rates, and a lot of people who have master's degrees have debts to pay off. It wouldn't surprise me to see people with MAs applying for a job that offered 250,00円/month, as it would allow them to service their debt quite well.

I was earning 400,000円/month the last time I lived in Japan ー without a higher qualification. I worked at some eikaiwa - not universities - where I was given a lot of freedom in my teaching and really enjoyed myself. I would happily teach at these places again.

Moreover, I said that I don't buy into the hierarchy, not that it doesn't exist. I would suggest that the hierarchy is financial more than anything else. It's only a hierarchy of quality by dint of the people doing the jobs - university jobs aren't available to neophyte teachers, which is as it should be. This, however, does not mean that bad teaching occurs in every eikaiwa. Nor does it mean that every eikaiwa is unprofessional.

University jobs are university jobs; eikaiwa jobs are eikaiwa jobs. They're very different - funding structures, institutional restrictions, learner profiles, how expectations are realised, and so on.

I'm a freelancer, and I like it that way - I can avoid the bulk of the politics and have higher expectations of earnings. On the flip side, I arguably have less job security, but to be frank, not by much (unless I were to chase the chimaera of the tenured professorship, which is not something I would want to do in Japan anyway). I respond to the insecurity of being a TEFLer in Japan by simply being good at my job.

Perhaps having the master's and a full-time job in a Japanese university also leads to tinted perspectives. Having property here makes a difference to my view, obviously, but not having it wouldn't stop me applying for a part-time job at an eikaiwa if it was the right job at the right school. While I accept that there are bad schools and bad wages, I also feel that eikaiwa has an undeservedly bad reputation: the internet is such that negative experiences tend to be magnified, and positive experiences tend to be reported less frequently, if they are reported at all.

Why is it that someone who has devoted the time, effort, money and stress to improving their teaching is automatically to be viewed with suspicion if they apply for an average job? It happens all the time in other countries; I would suggest that there is an element of snobbery involved.

[PG_Tips]

If showing you're a dab hand at finance and IT is way to highlight how you�ve chosen your �true calling�, then fair play to you. I�ve volunteered for IELTS classes and would continue to do so for the experience alone. All the while being a tenant and not having an MA. That doesn�t mean to say I would go full-time for a pittance. Ever. And it�s not ignoble or snobbish in the slightest to admit that.

I don�t really think that people being money-oriented in Japanese EFL is odd. Boring, yes. Not odd. There are more than a few ekaiwa and agencies that make their financial goals apparent through lack of training, decent curriculum, skeletal benefits and the like. Some might argue that this is just a result of different 'funding structures', but I would much rather label it a lack of concern for a decent teaching product because one isn�t needed to make money. And, so, while it may not be the point you are making, I do find it fairly condescending to insinuate an ekaiwa wage would be a reasonable return on an MA plus professional experience, regardless of one�s financial obligations back home. Not to mention one is living abroad, in a country with reasonably high living costs, where one doesn�t necessarily get the same social cushion or family security that can be accessed in the UK. I can think of nothing worse than succumbing to a foreign environment that negates the theory and practicum you�ve laboured through simply to �service debt�. I realise it�s a cold reality, but it doesn�t make it right. As a hirer I would definitely question a person�s motivations for doing a job that they are way overqualified for. That isn�t being suspicious, it�s being professional. Let�s also remember that only a couple of years ago the exchange rate was very, very different.

Depending on how long ago you pulled in 400k a month working ekaiwa has a lot to do with your view. Not to mention the freedom to experiment professionally, which is a great thing to have but not all that common. There are plenty of outfits here that would frown on even the simplest ESA attempt let alone anything else. Money wise, I�m on the same as you�ve earned and could easily get 100k more if I chose to work a Saturday. I am not working at ekaiwa, though, and I cover the four skills. Money is important enough for me to have a limit, but not so as to sacrifice other things. I know the financial limitations of TEFL and do the job because I enjoy it also.

In terms of hierarchies, I�m inclined to agree with you. Of course it�s financial, and for good reason. While I don�t have much respect for ekaiwa as a concept, that doesn�t mean there aren�t dedicated people working in them who care about the job. I should know because I was one of them. Still, in terms of ELT career growth, Japan has the unique ability of keeping an ekaiwa instructor in �neophyte� stasis despite all the years of effort they put in. Sure they earned more than the average Cert holder back home, but at least in the UK they�d get a subbed DELTA or DipTESOL for their toils, and the chance to earn more further afield.

University jobs and ekaiwa jobs are indeed different. Hence the absurdity at arming yourself to teeth with quals and experience to settle for a gig that often requires nothing more than an ability to speak English. And, as I do the same, I know that freelancing is no different from staying in one place when you factor in the lack of fringe benefits (unless you chase tenure, which, as you say is not something even remotely appealing). But with all that said, there is way more to it than being �good at your job�. There shouldn�t be, but there is. Even as a freelancer there is the danger of finding oneself in the midst of politics, or the pompous insistence of a pushy manager/faculty head. Thankfully I�ve not had too much trouble there, but I�ve witnessed others who have. People I would consider �good� teachers (whatever my opinion of them professionally is worth). And more than anything those dangers exist in ekaiwa. So for those reasons, I think the industry deserves every bit of stick it gets. And I�m speaking as someone who had a generally positive experience working in one.

[Mr_Monkey]

Where are these mythical eikaiwa teachers that are living hand-to-mouth existences (like those that appeared on that NHK documentary)?

The financial goals of organisations that suck - and there are many - are just that: financial goals. I used to work for GEOS. It was interesting to hear from former colleagues how the proprietor of the company insisted that if only the staff worked harder, their problems would be solved. This was the same guy who flew his private jet between Tokyo and Osaka. The basic problem was not that the staff weren't working hard enough - my managers regularly pulled 70 hour weeks - it was that the fundamental structure of the company was predicated on drawing high returns from minimal-to-no investment. This, as evidenced from the collapse of GEOS at least, and the general malaise that has beset the industry, clearly doesn't work in an economy that is contracting.

I'm not defending individual organisations; I'm suggesting that there is a discontinuity between the "eikaiwa industry", conceived as a monolithic entity (which it really isn't), and individual organisations. The idea that it is not necessary to offer a decent learning product in order to make money is, in my experience, disingenuous. At the very least, it ignores that learning is not simply an instrumental outcome. Some people do eikaiwa just for the sake of learning. Others do it because it's a social process. Others attend eikaiwa because they have rather specific purposes that are not covered in the EFL courses offered by the universities or other institutions. Therefore, if a company meets the needs of its customers, it will likely succeed, provided that it continues to attract new customers and meet their needs. It strikes me that with the current economic downturn, there has been a great deal of belt-tightening in the non-instrumental customer base.

EFL in Japan is too broad and too developed an area to just shove under the 'eikaiwa' label. Again: yes, there are shitty companies with shitty wages. The fact that many companies have reduced investment in their basic resource - teachers - suggests to me that ultimately, such companies will fail: it's impossible to maintain quality while unendingly reducing the amount of money spent on developing/making the product. I've seen firsthand the negative attitude that low wages engender in staff: in talented, experienced and qualified teachers. This is why I have indicated that there is a minimum wage that I would be prepared to accept. You should know that very few schools in the UK will sub a diploma course. For every school that does, there are ten that won't.

I'm not suggesting that you should work for a pittance. I would suggest that you both reconsider what a 'pittance' is, and consider whether or not you would ever apply for a job at 190,000円/month. If you have done, then you made your own bed. If you haven't, what is your point? We might bemoan the 190,000円/month jobs, but we can't stop someone taking them. Until organisations that pay poorly go out of business, there's not much you or I can do about it, except to choose the right jobs at the right schools.

Could you clarify what you mean by "professional experience"? I'm yet to find a consistent definition of what this means in Japan, or, indeed, anywhere. Isn't it the experience of a professional? Is it imposed on teachers, or is it something a teacher finds on their own? Should EFL teachers be chartered?

If you don't consider the work you do, regardless of context, to be professional, perhaps there is no professionalism for you to find. This is not intended as an insult, but rather an observation that 'professionalism' is rather like nationalism - it's an imagined community in EFL in Japan, if not the world. There's certainly no body that sets overarching standards in Japan. There should be, but that's a different thread.

As far as an eikaiwa wage being considered to be a reasonable return on investment is concerned, it's a relative proposition. If you think it's condescending for me to suggest that a wage equivalent to �23,000/year (based on an approximation of current exchange rates and a 250,000円/month salary) for someone just off an MA course isn't appealing, then it's your right to be offended. a �17,000/year job would be attractive to someone desperate enough for the money, and there are plenty of those in times like these. You may feel suitably condescended upon if you wish.

The simple fact of the matter is economic - if you're a graduate of a UK MA TESOL and need to at least make repayments on your debt, Japan is still an attractive country to come to: living expenses here are far lower outside Tokyo/Osaka than they are in Britain. Moreover, apart from securing a position lecturing in TESOL/Applied Linguistics/Linguistics in the UK - which requires a PhD these days - it's just as competitive as it is in Japan to secure a permanent teaching position in pretty much any school, even the shit ones, perhaps even moreso. Your MA isn't really going to do you that much good there.

If you don't like the wages in Japan, you can try other places. Japanese wages are actually pretty good, still, on the global scheme of things. I'm not saying wage deflation is a good thing, but it's definitely happening.

You don't have to like these facts, just accept them, for they are facts.

Maybe the issue isn't overqualified teachers. Perhaps it's underqualified teachers.

[PG_Tips]

I don�t know about the mythical eikaiwa teachers on NHK, I don�t watch Japanese TV, but you know as well as I do that there are people getting screwed when there are laws in place to say they shouldn�t be. I also know it is getting harder for people in that line of work to enjoy themselves in this country, and, yes, it is �relative� as long as there are donuts who think the Japan experience means servicing debt, cup ramen and 100 yen shot bars in Shibuya. If things ever got that bad for me I would reconsider Japan completely.

I seriously doubt that you have your finger so completely on the pulse in the manner that you try to assert here. Your pretentious explanation of �how business works� aside, there is little of what we�re saying that hasn�t been said a million times - probably in less words. The difference is I�ve been here over the last few years and seen with my own eyes that the reputation of ekaiwa is not due to a few bad apples, but more a pervasive business model that most schools are still sticking to. Their laziness may well be their undoing, but until that day comes, people should criticize them.

The lack of decent learning product on offer is very obviously disingenuous, and more so when you consider the learner profiles it tries to accommodate. Profiles you have so diligently explained here. But the companies don�t meet the needs of their customers. Hence, the stronger onus on young learners. They are clearly perceived as being less of a headache to cater for, and a more lucrative market to tap into. All the while lazily expecting teachers to miraculously have the skills sets required to teach them and adults. Between the common language school model and MEXTs bumbling attempts, the Japanese have more or less secured ELT work here for the next millennia. The question in hand is whether it pays enough, and whether it is worth doing an MA for. I don�t think many people out there would say it is. Unless of course, you would never find yourself in that position, didn�t need to worry about rent, had your MA and Uni work, earned well and was saying it just to sound like you�re �with� the cup rameners for the love of the job

Moreover, I�d like to categorically state that I haven�t �shoved� EFL here under any label. I couldn�t even if I wanted to. I am working in a situation where I get to teach the way I want and it is not ekaiwa. My courses are full-time with the same students, more than once a week. I like it and take it seriously. I consider it to be, dare I say it, professional. So, in that sense, it is also an 'experience', and we can then coin the phrase �professional experience�. Pretty straight forward really. No pretense to be found unless you are looking to over complicate things for the sake of sounding clever.

But the fact remains that many, many, many schools focus on the classic ekaiwa model; speaking skills and fluency, a very relaxed view of private study and little in terms of measurable improvement. Whether students are happy with that is one thing, paying English speakers buttons to work those gigs is another, and having an MA to do the job is a sadder thing still. If you have a minimum bar you�d be willing to accept, good for you, I have the same, but I question your motives for saying that here, after carefully pointing out an ability to fall back on other, potentially lucrative job markets, your financial security in not having a property to pay for and your already full-time Uni job. If all that was gone tomorrow, and you had bills to pay, mouths to feed etc., what would be your TEFLer wage limit? On that note, I don�t mind telling you that you�re coming off as fairly snobbish by recommending people reconsider what a pittance is. Especially with the tired comparisons to UK currency, which don�t equate to worth in terms of spending power, or take into account the very real threat of fluctuation.

I haven�t taken a �190k a month job. And my point is that someone who is qualified to teach EAP or at least has an inkling of the job beyond a smile and neck-tie, should be aiming their sights higher, too. Much higher. It does the industry no favours to have MA holders doing the work a monkey could do. Unless they�re monkeys too, in which case the MA (probably true in some cases) is no reflection of genuine ability to teach. But, yes, I suppose you�re right, someone can make their own bed in that sense, much like taking a job in the UK without any chance of getting some extra training out of it. Doesn�t mean people shouldn�t have an opinion on it. These forums would die a death if that was the case.

And yes the simple fact of the matter is money. Which leads me to believe �190k a month would be a waste of time for an MA holder. And with the far lower costs of living outside the major cities comes far lower job opportunities. What a wonderful experience that would be: LeoPalace surrounded by rice fields, curry ramen for brekka, and some screaming kids for 7 hours straight. Hmmmm.

And yes the issue is underqualified teachers (although an MA doesn�t really mean much unless it has practicum). By giving jobs you don't need qualifications for to people who have them, doesn't mean the market will raise its game with the new injection of knowledge. It will just assume it can pay much less for 'better' people. The students might win out of it, but the likelihood is nothing changes except the wages. Maybe a new Japan-specific methodology will be born from the smouldering embers of an MA holder�s dreams.

The Shafted Approach.

PS. Thank you so much for the permission to feel condescended upon. I can't wait to watch you at a JALT conference!

[gwynnie86]

[Rooster_2006]

I understand that eventually, if unemployment in the west remains extremely high, this may one day make a master's degree combined with several years of experience the norm to teach at eikaiwa.

That's how the market works, unfortunately. When there's a massive supply of well-qualified, eager workers, willing to work for nothing, then the qualifications to do that job go way up.

Sucks for people like me, though. I'm 24. I simply haven't had the time or the money to get a master's degree or 5+ years of experience.

I've used my time relatively well -- I have CELTA, a bachelor's degree, and a few years of teaching experience in Taiwan and Korea, not to mention the ability to speak both Japanese and Korean, but I simply am not old enough to have a master's degree/5+ years of experience in Japan. I just can't compete with those guys who do, and now that they're swooping down and taking entry-level eikaiwa work, I'm beginning to wonder "is there any way I can work in this country?" It's not fair, honestly. They get the jump on me simply by being born during a better time.

I'll trudge on and try to find a job, though. I'm in Osaka. I have about 80 days left in the country. I've had one job interview already (a good one, at that), but am not sure yet whether I got that job.

Had I been born five years earlier and done everything the way I am doing it now, I would probably have a job already.

[Mr_Monkey]

I should clarify a few things:

• I hold a PGCE in ESOL. That had a practicum.
  
  
• I don't believe I have claimed anywhere that I have a full-time university job. I actually stated that I am a freelancer and I like it that way.
  
  
• I haven't claimed that anyone should work for peanuts. I said that I don't believe anyone should apply for 190,000円/month jobs. I do, though, believe that in the current climate and given the currently extremely advantageous exchange rates against the dollar and sterling, it's a not a huge surprise to hear of MA holders applying for jobs at 250,000円/month, particularly considering how difficult it is to find an EFL job in the UK (a much more expensive place to live, in my experience, than outside of the big cities in Japan) that pays anywhere near a living wage. For someone just out of university in the UK - BA or MA - even a job paying 190,000円 has its attractions. I've been in the UK very recently. Trust me; it's a fucking mess there.
  
  
• Most of the universities in the UK won't even accept an MA for teaching in their language units; they want the DELTA. Some universities even ask for a DELTA + MA. Unfortunately, for someone like me with a Japanese family, the DELTA is a non-starter as, again in my experience, many school managers in Japan haven't even heard of it.
  
  
• We actually agree on your core point about about eikaiwa, although we disagree on the extent of the point. I have said a couple of times now that there are eikaiwa that care about their customers and offer a decent product that leads to measurable learning. As evidence, I have offered my own experiences working in them. Sure, there are other schools that categorically do not take this approach. I don't deny that they are in the majority either. I've simply pointed out that "eikaiwa" is not a monolithic term. I've not suggested that it's all sunshine.
  
  We also agree on the shift to young learners - it is lazy and an attempt to perpetuate a business model that doesn't work. It's basically the same point I made about the owner of GEOS enjoining the staff to work harder, rather than changing the way the business was run. You might think it pretentious of me to explain it, and perhaps it was, but you did miss my point, and I think you're being a little uncharitable.
  
  
• My point that I was prepared to work in eikaiwa after obtaining my MA was not to demonstrate some kind of bad faith bourgeois solidarity with my downtrodden proletarian comrades; I'm not a Guardian journalist. I was simply indicating another reason why you might find people with MAs applying for eikaiwa jobs. The comment should be viewed in light of what I said earlier about freelancing, enjoying teaching, and knowing that there are some good schools out there - I know of two schools in Fukuoka prefecture that won't take on any staff without a CELTA and experience, and pay over the former average eikaiwa salary. If I can get part-time work at an eikaiwa where I'm not told how to teach and I am in a position to ensure that what I teach reflects the needs of the learners, why shouldn't I do it? If I could earn enough money to support myself and my family, and I enjoy the job, I really see no reason not to. 400,000円/month is approaching the default salary at most universities for foreign English teachers. Given how competitive and difficult it is to find university work, it's unlikely that I'd be able to support myself and my family on part-time university jobs alone.
  
  
• I seem to have rubbed you up the wrong way, PG Tips. Any snarkiness that I directed at you in my posts was unnecessary, and I apologise.
  
  I shall make sure it doesn't happen again. I would simply ask that you do the same.
  
  

Rooster, I don't think you'll have that much to worry about in terms of MA holders swooping down and taking jobs out from under you. I think you're right in that qualifications requirements will rise, but I suspect that you will find something.