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Sudz
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
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 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:47 am Post subject: Has anyone taken the MA ONLY route? |
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I'm enrolling into Nottingham's MA TESOL program, and am interested in working in Japan after. No I don't have a BA, and got into the program by pushing my TESOL certificate, IELTS certificate, and 6 + years of experience.
I know I won't be eligible for university due to not having any university experience or publications, but I'm curious where I might stand besides this. Has anyone taken this route, or know of someone who has? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| No pubs or experience means you will probably be shooting for all the entry level jobs as any BA-only holder. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| No pubs or experience means you will probably be shooting for all the entry level jobs as any BA-only holder. |
And you had better confirm with the Japanese embassy that they will actually issue you a work visa without an undergrad. They may not. An MA is, after all, only a year full-time, and a degree is three minimum. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I understood the regulations state that 3 years experience in lieu of a degree was acceptable. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| No pubs or experience means you will probably be shooting for all the entry level jobs as any BA-only holder. |
And you had better confirm with the Japanese embassy that they will actually issue you a work visa without an undergrad. They may not. An MA is, after all, only a year full-time, and a degree is three minimum. |
Would they really turn people away who only had an MA? It's higher than a BA afterall.
And what about science majors where you do not get awarded a BA at all? At my uni a good example was Pharmacy. The course is 4 years full time with only an MA at the end, since it's the minimum requirement to get onto pre-reg. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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The OP's 6 years of experience will allow them to bypass any requirement for a degree.
Immigration does not specifically say BA or BS or BSc, by the way. |
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Sudz
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys.
It's tough getting info on this on a country to country basis, as there aren't many people in my (future) position. Yes there are a few countries which REQUIRE a BA specifically for immigration, such as Thailand and Taiwan - I think you can add Korea to this list as well. As Glenski said, my experience should bypass the degree in this case, and since immigration does not specifically state which degree one would need, perhaps even showing an MA would suffice.
If anyone else could add to this it would be great! As I mentioned, it's tough getting info on this particular topic.
Glenski - so would you gather that I'd be on the same page as a BA only holder WITH experience? It would be somewhat of a shame to earn the MA TESOL only to wind up working at a language mill - if I'm correct in assuming that this is where one would most likely end up with such qualifications. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sudz wrote: |
Thanks guys.
It's tough getting info on this on a country to country basis.... |
Well, you certainly do seem to be putting the effort in--over 100 posts on this very topic, including over 50 threads started. Heck, this is the second thread on this that you've started just on the Japan board:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=83875&highlight=
I.e., back in September, you started this same thread--getting pretty much the same responses. Seriously, did you really think the answers were going to be much different this time around?
| Sudz wrote: |
| Glenski - so would you gather that I'd be on the same page as a BA only holder WITH experience? It would be somewhat of a shame to earn the MA TESOL only to wind up working at a language mill - if I'm correct in assuming that this is where one would most likely end up with such qualifications. |
Where the heck else would you expect to end up? I do know people in Japan without degrees who have nice jobs (typically ALT/Eikaiwa "language mill" positions)--usually, they have great local references plus either good Japanese skills or a spouse visa (many have both). What will you bring to the table that they can't? Moreover, you are getting basically a life experience degree dressed up as an MA TESOL--do you really think this makes you so much better than the majority of people already here, with degrees, similarly experienced, and looking for work now?
In some ways, I like your chances in Japan better without the MA. In my opinion, the MA may make you seem overqualified to many eikaiwa school owners, while your lack of an undergraduate degree will seriously (though not fatally) hinder getting ALT positions. (The dispatch agencies would have to explain the "MA but no BA" situation to the BOEs...doubt many would waste the time unless it was for a particularly hard-to-fill position.) I.e., you'll still be able to get jobs, but you're going to have to search long and hard for them (and most likely resign yourself to taking something not very desirable).
Given this, and assuming you interview well, the 6+ years of work experience plus a recognized certificate (e.g., CELTA) would seem to serve you at least as well as that MA...maybe better. I mean, it'd be different if you really wanted to do the MA for its own sake, but your 100+ posts to Dave's asking these same questions over and over again suggest that better employment is your main reason for getting the degree. If that's the case, then at least for Japan, I'd give it a pass!
Just my two yen. Good luck to you! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Glenski - so would you gather that I'd be on the same page as a BA only holder WITH experience? |
I answered that in your other thread.
It took you long enough back in Sept/Oct to explain that your 6 years meant this:
| Quote: |
a fair amount of experience teaching from Kindergarten up to grade 9 (esl) - as well as a more modest amount of experience teaching IELTS at the upper secondary level as well (9-12).
My experience has come from working in Vietnam. Back when I started, they were more lenient on hiring those without an undergraduate degree. I got the job based on my TESOL certificate alone (starting at a language centre, transfering to a psedo international school). |
I don't think that you've significantly improved upon your situation since then. Re-read my other posts on that old thread, and things are pretty much the same now.
I don't know if I agree with taikibansei about your chances of landing an ALT job. You are qualified for the visa, have experience teaching in an Asian country, and have an MA. That combination seems to be pretty good to me. Not every employer will entertain Vietnamese teaching experience as equivalent to Japanese, though, so keep that in mind. And, yes, eikaiwas don't typically hire MA holders, but who can say nowadays when there are hundreds of applicants for one position?
How about answering what taikibansei asked:
Where do you hope to end up? International schools won't touch you. 99.9% of universities won't, either. That leaves eikaiwa, ALT jobs, and a smattering of other opportunities. What are your goals/hopes? |
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Sudz
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:30 am Post subject: |
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First of all, sorry about the re-thread. I should have continued on from my previous one - not like it really matters all that much. I'm obsessing about this topic for one main reason: the program is pricey, and I want to make sure that it's a worthwhile investment (both in terms of time and finance). The persistance has paid off though, as I've had some really good PMs from people who have direct experience with this matter. Since this is a popular board, posts can become burried, hence me 'resurrecting' the subject.
taikibansei - Thanks for the reply. Might I ask though, where on earth do you get the idea that this MA TESOL is a 'dressed up life experience degree"? Are you assuming this because of the fact that I was accepted into the program without a BA? Are you familiar with Nottingham, or the program? Second, I don't think obtaining this degree would make me SO much better, but shouldn't having a respectable degree(and it is) RELATED to teaching count for something? Anyways I'm not trying to have a go.
Thanks again Glenski. I think I'll ask some schools directly about an ALT job - which I suppose would be my goal should I arrive without any other university qualifications (experience, publications etc). It's also possible that I'll gain some university experience elsewhere before making a move to Japan.
Oh one more thing: don't some school like to post their teachers qualifications? Wouldn't having a teacher with an MA TESOL be an advantage just for this sake? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 778
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Sudz wrote: |
It's also possible that I'll gain some university experience elsewhere before making a move to Japan.
Oh one more thing: don't some school like to post their teachers qualifications? Wouldn't having a teacher with an MA TESOL be an advantage just for this sake? |
South Korea might be YOUR place.
In Japan, the MA TESOL is MINIMUM qualification. I mean, without it, you wouldn't even be considered for any uni position. Than on top of that, they want previous uni work experience, publications, presentations, Japanese language ability types of things...and quite a few even ask for a PhD as well.
That being said, it isn't completely impossible with only a MA TESOL and nothing else. It's just that it is very, very unlikely. Mostly because for any 1 uni job here, you'll probably be competing with 100 other applicants, a quarter of which will probably be absolutely loaded with all of those above expected minimum qualifications and much more.
Best bet would be to get that MA...than go to South Korea and get a uni job there. Get your experience in, and start cranking out the presentations and publications to put on your resume.
Somewhere in there, try to study Japanese as well.
You are heading in the right direction, but the path is a long one...  |
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Sudz
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Tiger Beer (I'm a fan of your beverage by the way.)
Interesting. Might the lack of BA not be an issue? I kept hearing that 4 year degrees were necessary, though this was only related to typical language center positions. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 778
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sudz wrote: |
Thanks Tiger Beer (I'm a fan of your beverage by the way.)
Interesting. Might the lack of BA not be an issue? I kept hearing that 4 year degrees were necessary, though this was only related to typical language center positions. |
Actually, I don't know, I have a BS, MA and another MA. So, never had to address the issue. Sorry, I can't be more helpful.
But, in South Korea, you need a BA to get a work visa through immigation. I don't know if a MA overrides that or not though.
For Japan. The work visas seem to be different here. I don't know for sure here either on that exact issue. I know that most potential uni employers require you to write your BA degree as well as your MA degree on their application forms though. I am unsure sure how much they care if a BA is not there as long as the MA is there.
I guess it really comes down to is inquiring if MA degrees override a lack of a BA degree in Japan or South Korea in regards to immigration/work visa issues. To that question, I am unsure. (Sorry, viewing your Original Post, that seems to be the question all along). |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I don't know if I agree with taikibansei about your chances of landing an ALT job. You are qualified for the visa, have experience teaching in an Asian country, and have an MA. |
Glenski, normally I'd agree with this, but as you know, the dispatch company (had to chuckle at the idea of simply contacting schools and getting a direct hire) will have to fill out and submit a form with his full academic background written out in Japanese. As he will have an MA but no BA--something almost unheard of in Japan--the circumstances will need to be explained...by the dispatch company. Not insurmountable by any means, but will they want to do this (when they have so many other applicants applying for each opening)? Again, I'd argue no...unless it was for a particularly hard-to-fill position.
| Sudz wrote: |
| taikibansei - Thanks for the reply. Might I ask though, where on earth do you get the idea that this MA TESOL is a 'dressed up life experience degree"? Are you assuming this because of the fact that I was accepted into the program without a BA? Are you familiar with Nottingham, or the program? Second, I don't think obtaining this degree would make me SO much better, but shouldn't having a respectable degree(and it is) RELATED to teaching count for something? Anyways I'm not trying to have a go. |
Actually, I know the university there quite well--indeed, given that you're not even enrolled in the program in question, probably at least as well as yourself. The University of Nottingham is an excellent school. Furthermore, the program you may someday be entering also has a good reputation. However, having taught in the graduate school of an otherwise well-regarded university which also decided one day to accept graduate school admission applications from people without undergraduate degrees, let me add that the administrative decision to treat a TESOL certificate and 6 years of kindergarten teaching experience overseas as equivalent to a full BA/BS was most likely made for other than educational reasons. Regardless, will you get an equal opportunity to receive an excellent education there? Of course!
| Sudz wrote: |
| Oh one more thing: don't some school like to post their teachers qualifications? Wouldn't having a teacher with an MA TESOL be an advantage just for this sake? |
Almost all universities in Japan now do this. Indeed, taking a look at the full-time faculty listed on Japanese university web pages would be a good way to understand the level of competition here right now. E.g., as Tiger Beer also suggests, an MA TESOL, by itself, is not going to set you apart for full-time university positions--it's the bare minimum qualification.
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| I know that most potential uni employers require you to write your BA degree as well as your MA degree on their application forms though. I am unsure sure how much they care if a BA is not there as long as the MA is there. |
It would need to satisfy not just the department itself but the full faculty kyoujukai as well. I.e., even if we (as the department) loved the OP's application and wanted to hire him, one of us would need to stand up in front of over 80 other faculty and explain/defend our hiring of a guy without a BA (but with an MA). Impossible? Heck, no! However, the rest of his application better be stellar--e.g., multiple academic publications and presentations, significant teaching experience at the university-level, Japanese language ability, etc. Otherwise, why would we bother--most searches will easily result in 50+ applicants with an MA TESOL...plus a lot of other good stuff!
I think this is my main concern with the OP's many posts on this issue--he seems to be viewing the MA TESOL as some sort of magic bullet. It's not. Given this, I personally would be hesitant to fork out (a lot of) money to enter a graduate program right now--unless, again, this field was indeed something the OP truly wanted to study (and conduct significant research in). At least in Japan, without significant publications and presentations as well, that MA TESOL is just not going to help him that much.
Finally, to the OP, I'm also not trying to "have a go" at you. However, you've asked for honest feedback--and I've now given you mine. Take it or leave it, as you will. No offense intended...and good luck to you!  |
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Sudz
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:14 am Post subject: |
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No worries TB.
Well I was - to the delight of others - going to start yet ANOTHER thread on this, but I just realized that I cannot post on the Korea board. (????)
I'd be very interested to know the answer to this question (working in Korea on an MA). I'll look into a few universities and ask directly.
Thanks. |
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