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[mark_in_saigon]

I owned several small businesses (with low profit, limited resources) and also worked in some very large businesses, one of which was the most admired company in America one year. Interestingly, one could do a much better job with product and customer service in the struggling small business than the very large, profitable business. I do not see the poverty of this nation as being the reason it operates the way it does. During the wars of the 20th century here, they were able to do some very impressive jobs with far less resources than their opponents. I think the answers to these issues are deeper.

I do agree though about following the process in place. If everyone pushes their way in front of you, eventually, you drop your courtesy and follow suit. I still do not throw trash around like they do, but only because there is no real benefit for me, or punishment if I fail to (yes, you read that correctly, punishment for failing to follow procedure of throwing trash everywhere).

I think you can have any kind of system you want here. These are intelligent, motivated and obedient people. Not every one, but if I had to go to war with the first 10 of their guys that walked down the street compared to the first 10 of my guys, their would be no question on that. This does not speak to which country can supply the better toys. Look at the difference between Singapore and Malaysia. Pretty much the same kind of people, but look at the results. Or Hong Kong and other Chinese port cities. Or look at how the VN in America do compared to how they do here. I think it is a matter of they system you put on them, not the people themselves.

Anyway, as I have posited a few posts back, it may be that this kind of system is better for the elite, maybe also better for we who are foreign teachers, if we can accept the difficulties too. It may not be very moral or ethical, but it sure seems to financially benefit us for the system to be this way.

Please try not to make your thoughts on schools or ESL or VN into personal attacks. We should all want to contribute to the success of this nation and its people. Disparaging schools or posters is not helpful. I am sure that as teachers, we have already have learned those lessons. But discussing the shortcomings in a positive way should be permitted and harmless. It could even help. Eventually, these businesses will have to function in a competitive free market. Helping them know what their customers and employees see and experience can be a positive benefit. Let's keep it constructive, and MOD EDIT. Thanks.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

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[CThomas]

One possible solution: a light-weight national/global school. Let me explain.

I read recently an analysis (Anatomy of Peace) that claimed that much of the woes that keep Vietnam from really blooming stem from the general psyche of the management (gov't). The story goes something like this: What brought Vietnam victory (war-time management style) is counterproductive during peace. Related, membership in the party has become more guarantor of access to power levers than it is a means of participating in the progressive force it was initially envisioned to be.

How this bears on customer service and general civic etiquette, I'm not 100% sure of, but if anything points to a systemic hiccup that precludes attentiveness and responsibility at the street level, this could do so if it is true that cultural hierarchy (and more a focus on that than the micro-dynamics of civic interactions) breeds complacency down through the ranks.

For the sake of moving on, set this aside as a given (though keep it in mind) and consider what we can do to help. My guess is that change would occur more profoundly in the education system than in the vocational language training system. Think university partnerships, scholarships to world-class Universities, immersive participation in environments that foster critical thinking and global/environmental citizenship.

That is not to discourage nor denounce ESL as a change agent so much as to point to it's influence and ability to educate. ESL is not education, at base. Could it be? Perhaps, but I believe it's a no-win battle. I don't think using civic content to teach ESL really does much -- it's about experiencing civic engagement: fostering entrepreneurship, picking up trash, testing river water, making pen pals around the world. To the extent ESL can do this, then it can contribute, but that isn't their game. To cut to the chase, it's fairly pointless to target ESL schools (and ESL programs within educational institutions) for this conversation at ANY level of their operation.

Granted, there are some similar problems with international schooling (and some specific schools -- there always is) but the point is that education differs wildly from technical training, which is precisely what ESL is. And international schools here range from superior and expensive to well, just confusedly motivated.

One thought I've been mulling over recently: somehow give more people access to international education. Currently, costs to attend decent international schools range from 14 million (for essentially national schools) to 20++ million per month for the accredited schools. Yes, some people may pay a lot to attend the better ESL programs, but is there a middle road where, let's say, non-"rich" families could send a child to school for about 10 million/month (and perhaps even less).

To me, it's not about who has the greatest infusion of capital while trying to compete with SSIS -- it's about good teaching and offering good experiences that foster civic, scientific, and business awareness -- all while developing a "world-class" skill set. And, imho, while fostering appreciation of and preserving Vietnam's traditions.

International schools have traditionally catered to foreigner's children; national schools have sprung up as a diluted version of these. The former is not really what this thread is about, the latter is not typically motivated in the way I'm thinking here, but rather as a for profit. What about something like a bare-bones, highly stimulating, global national school? I've seen what a good charter school can do in the US (Watch "Waiting for Superman" if you haven't): very light on administration, heavy on teaching. I don't know of anything like this here.

I don't know to what extent those who frequent this forum may find this helpful, but it's an idea that tries to acknowledge both the political structures and the institutional characters of the schools here while offering something that could be done.

In conclusion, with some exceptions, like the addition of business people during recent elections, I think really profound change is coming from the current children of today. If I were really interested in helping Vietnam (and I am), I'd try to put my energy and resources there in whatever way possible with the aim of providing an immersive, global education to a broader segment of the population.

[deadlift]

I think you make a very good point, CThomas.

RMIT is a good example. The campus has a very small outdoor smoking-allowed section, recycling stations which are used, a nascent queuing culture and a general expectation that international etiquette applies. It's far from perfect, but it's like a different world from the rest of Saigon.

Many students have expressed a preference for all of this, and many affect a disdain (which I believe to be sincere) for the bad habits that reflect so poorly on the country.

If you go to Galaxy cinemas, you will have seen the "turn off your phone/ don't smoke/ don't talk" public service announcement. What is interesting is that the ad uses a kind of language that paints this behaviour as "redneck" or "hick" behaviour. The stick figure that serves as the model of what not to do is the Vietnamese equivalent of Cletus., the Slack-Jawed Yokel. There was an article in the Word about the "civilising" of Saigon some time last year which highlighted this and other examples.

Many locals, particularly young professionals, really want to be seen as modern, developed and international, and so they will be among the vanguard in improving things, I think.

[mark_in_saigon]

[I'm With Stupid]

[bludevil96]

What ever the failures you find here i.e. trash, driving habits, crimes, education, or behavior, you'll find it in a large U.S. city. The difference is that Vietnam is not on the verge of bankruptcy. Its government is not allowing the very people who single-handedly caused a global economic meltdown to escape simple prosecution; not to mention rewarding these very *beep* with the power to do even more damage. Amen.