Job Discussion Forums

[hashim99uk]

I donot understand the hypocrisy of some westerners who are criticizing KSU, Bell or Obaikan and still working in the same place, if you are unhappy just leave, why always complain. I think to keep complaining is just an addict ! If you are not complaining you are not belonging to the West! civilized West !
I was teaching at KSU, but was uncomfortable then decided to leave.
I have met with many westerners in Jeddah, Jubail, Hail, and Yanbu. They are complaining everywhere ! despite they still working for many years! in the same place ! Hypocrisy is the trade mark for many westerners !
Really double-faced, they have been working for many years, saving very good money, but when somebody comes for the first time, they advise him to leave, they are not leaving, but he should leave !! The ugly face of the West, ungrateful and double-faced people!!

[veiledsentiments]

[mashkif]

You have got to bear in mind that Saudi attracts a higher than usual amount of oddballs. Very few TEFL-ers go to Saudi for the adventure in the same way that they do to say China. Many are in a way forced to go work there so they're unhappy to be there in the first place. They could be working for the best employer even by Western standards and still find something to nag about.

That said, it is deliciously ironic that you attack Westerners, the West, and Western "hypocrisy" while choosing to live in the West, probably retain a valuable Western passport and reap a swath of benefits of living here. If you find the West so repugnant, please don't let the door hit your butt on the way out. And leave the passport behind. Are you going to do that any time soon?

Didn't think so.

[johnslat]

Hypocrisy can be found everywhere (well, except in my house,) but in my experience it tends to be more prevalent in societies that have more restrictions and that have very strict standards of "proper behavior." Human nature, especially its attendant vices, resists legislation - which is why Prohibition in the US failed (and why the government is losing the "War on Drugs.")

I think a good historical example might be "Victorian England." As for a present day example. well, I'll refrain from citing one lest I hurt anyone's feelings (Hmm, is that hypocritical of me?)

Regards,
John

[ah_yes]

For one who is still deciding whether to take the plunge and accept a new life with the Saudis, I'm finding the posts in this thread enlightening, in that they give a refreshing perspective on all the negativity that's written about jobs in Saudi, that won't usually be found in other threads.

I wish the serial moaners would think for a moment that people, some with families, are basing their life-changing decisions on many of the comments on this forum. I shudder to think that many of those negative posts may have been written by disgruntled hypocrites. I hadn't thought of that.

[Mia Xanthi]

Before you decide that everyone on here is a negative serial moaned, ah_yes, please consider what I have to say:

The worst serial moaners on this board started out as fresh-faced newbies, determined to believe that KSA couldn't really be that bad. They ignored every bit of advice given to them by old-timers, just assuming we were all either negative people or just motivated to keep all the piles of gold to ourselves. They took shady jobs with dishonest contractors, refusing to believe that they were being lied to. They went over on illegal visas against our advice, expecting that the consequences couldn't be that bad.

They ended up placed in rural areas of Saudi Arabia that no one in their right mind would want to even visit, let alone live. They were placed in sub-standard and even dangerous housing. They spent months without a passport, waiting for the long-promised iqama that never seemed to come. They found themselves teaching many more hours than they had agreed to, with promised overtime pay that never materialized.
Many found themselves destitute because their first paycheck was months late, and they couldn't even send the money home to pay for families and bills because they still had no iqama. Married people who were told their spouses could come in weeks discovered that it would actually take months, and even when the spouses did arrive, housing and schooling were inadequate for families.
Worst of all, some people arrived, took a look around, and decided that they wanted to go home right away. Sadly, these people found themselves held against their will since they had turned over their passports to their employers on arrival so they could get their legal work visa stamped in it. If they expressed a desire to leave to the employer or the recruiter, they were told they would have to pay thousands of dollars in fines plus their own airfare for breaking the contract.
Now not everyone has these experiences. Some had great experiences with good employers that they had carefully checked out before they signed on. Some have awful experiences that they are willing to tolerate for years in the name of money (see 500Club members). Some just get lucky with good colleagues and a great social life that make everything worth it. But many people who do have bad experiences and end up endlessly complaining are those who would not listen to the voices of experience on this board and completely ignored the very real perils of Saudi Arabia.
The point is to read thoroughly and carefully the back pages of this forum and learn from the experiences, both good and bad, of others. Choose only those jobs that are consistently mentioned as well-established and honest employers. Take no chances with the promises of recruiters, and avoid start-ups at all costs. There are plenty of well-documented fair employers. Saudi will never be a cake walk for anyone, but it is not a place to take a chance on unknown employers.
Wishing you all the best in your search.

[It's Scary!]

Well put, dear Ms.

It's Scary!

[ah_yes]

Thanks Mia.

I suppose my point is that posts like yours and others in this thread are rare, in that they are balanced, because you have the benefit of experience, and you're able to talk about both good and bad experiences. In fact mosts posts, with very few badly-written exceptions are written by teachers, who have a good command of English and they're able to write in a way that you would have to believe as the truth, when the reality may be that they somehow provoked their own bad treatment, who knows what their stories are, and their experience should not scare people into deciding to *AVOID* this or that place, like it's the devil's pit. I think this kind of posting should not be allowed, purely because this style of writing goes beyond expressing an opinion, it is a virtual scare-ad or warning, and since we know that these scare warnings might not apply to everyone, and is probably an inappropriate way to write in a social forum. I think what would be 'nicer' would be to have a separate 'believe it or not Saudi School From hell' forum, then those kinds of posts would not be part of the regular writings of impartial advice. How confident would people be about publishing a book on avoiding certain schools using the warning postings on this forum? Are they all to be taken as reliable? If they wouldn't make your book, why do they appear published here as credible?

[johnslat]

Dear ah_yes,

It's a conundrum, admittedly. But I don't think this is really a "social forum" (although it admittedly can seem an awful lot like one.) It's supposed to be a "Job Information" forum.

And there's really no way that posts that say "This place is hell" or "This place is heaven" can be checked.

I'm sure that, in at least some cases, what you suspect is true:

" . . . when the reality may be that they somehow provoked their own bad treatment, who knows what their stories are, and their experience should not scare people into deciding to *AVOID* this or that place, like it's the devil's pit."

The fact is that there ARE a large number of bad jobs in Saudi - as well as good ones - and when someone falls into a bad job there, getting out can be very hard. It's different from most other countries where EFLers go.

So, I guess what it comes down to (as usual) is caveat emptor - let the buyer (or, in this case, the potential employee) beware.

Regards,
John

[ah_yes]

Well then a "job information forum" should be organised a little more professionally, so that information on establishments, recruitment companies, and SEPARATELY PERSONAL GOOD AND BAD EXPERIENCES can be found without having to read the social posts, at least in terms of reliable information, official information, and heresay. The forum is actually used by people who are seriously considering making life-changing decisions based on what is written here by professionals. When anecdotes, memories, real accounts and exaggerated stories are put together into the mix, we end up with an unreliable, blurry soup of information and gossip.

Ar there any threads started by people who are actually positively recommending colleges? Do we have stickys of the good places to work at in Saudi as well or only negative threads? We need the positive info too, so I would ask a favour of the experienced ones here to do that please.

[Mia Xanthi]

If the forum were organized that way, the "positive" forum would be filled with fake postings from recruiters extolling the virtues of jobs that are in fact the stuff of nightmares. Most of the really positive postings on this forum are exactly that. You are better off looking for posters that provide both positive and negative information over an extended period of time. Those are the only ones that I would take as "truth" -it's as close as you're gonna get.

[johnslat]

Dear ah_yes,

I would suggest that you send your ideas to Dave - along with any more advice on how the forums should be arranged.

Have you tried using the "Search" function yet (unfortunately, it doesn't always function that well?) Here's one thread that has some info (as well as some "social posts" - sorry)

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=74752&highlight=jobs+saudi+arabia

and someone posted a list of "decent" places to work in Saudi not too long ago.

Regards,
John

[Warning Bells]

The worst people I have ever met have been Westerners, especially Western TEFLers! I'll put Western TEFLers living in the Middle East at the very top of my list of the worst people alive right next to politicians and dictators.

[johnslat]

Dear Warning Bells.

"The worst people I have ever met have been Westerners, especially Western TEFLers! I'll put Western TEFLers living in the Middle East at the very top of my list of the worst people alive right next to politicians and dictators."

"I think this kind of posting should not be allowed, purely because this style of writing goes beyond expressing an opinion, it is a virtual scare-ad or warning, and since we know that these scare warnings might not apply to everyone, and is probably an inappropriate way to write in a social forum."


Irony, right?

Regards,
John

[cassava]