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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe they'd get loans or scholarships? |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| IIRC the article says that one in five of the first 200 applicants would get a grant or scholarship of some sort (though I'm not sure if they mean as an initial one-off, or for every fresh first-year's intake). Either way, the UK just hasn't had the philanthropic tradition of endowments that the US has, and who is going to want to get that much into debt with the job markets like they are? I think education has become a scam, a complete rip-off. (I'm not opposed to learning, but an education that costs a lot should bring recompense in terms of future earnings, remuneration, and that just isn't happening any longer. It's like the increasing cost is in inverse proprtion to the basic value - yet another bubble of a sort, in other words!). |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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�9,000 a year at a ropey ex-poly where the lecturers have 25+ hours a week contact time, and no research time.
�18,000 a year at what looks likely to be one of the top Universities in the UK. Taught by the best in their fields.
If I had the cash, it would be a easy decision for me. |
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Dedicated
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 972
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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We already have one private university in the UK : the University of Buckingham. Contra the hopes of free-market fundamentalists, it was not the first of a new breed of lean, independent institutions that would send their doddering statist rivals to the wall. It's the only one of its kind and hasn't quite made it into the top Russell Group of universities.
What will be different here? Well, the 14 members of Grayling's professoriate - among them are Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, Niall Ferguson, Christopher Ricks and Linda Colley - are a distinguished bunch. However, what they mostly have in common is :
a) celebrity
b) having other jobs.
Grayling says the quality of teaching will be guaranteed by salaries of 25% above the average paid elsewhere. But one-and-a quarter times the salary of an ordinary history professor wouldn't get most of those guys out of bed.
All those 14 not only have other jobs : they have serious other six-figure jobs. So we can assume that the heavy lifting will be done by less starry teachers. Though some of the 18 year old undergraduates might be attracted by the prospect of sitting in a seminar with Steven Pinker, the glamour is likely to work on potential faculty members. Proper dons do research as well as teaching. It's a career, not a sabbatical. They exist, and their undergraduates benefit from their existence in a whole linked structure of academic endeavour. Will scholars of quality really throw that up to teach undergraduates at Potemkin College, London - even for a pay rise?
I'd love to be proved wrong, but at the moment, the comparator isn't looking like the University of Buckingham but more like Jamie Oliver's Dream School. It will probably not be the " very brightest" but those with the deepest pockets who are afforded the chance. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I spent �7.99 or whatever it was on the Penguin edition of Pinker's The Language Instinct, and that was enough.     Mind you, his The Stuff of Thought looked like it had a sort of crash-course on tense and aspect about halfway through it that I would't mind having a read of. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Dedicated wrote: |
| So we can assume that the heavy lifting will be done by less starry teachers. |
I would imagine that's true, but then in the 'better' universities, first years, and in some cases first and second years, will receive a significant proportion of their tuition from PhD students. Whilst the real 'dons' are off doing their research. So if the students at this place 'only' get taught by regular lecturers, they are still at an advantage.
We'll have to see whether the comparisons to Buckingham Uni turn out to be fair. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| HLJHLJ wrote: |
�18,000 a year at what looks likely to be one of the top Universities in the UK. Taught by the best in their fields. |
Or you could get the same education for 3500 for all three years. The degree programs the students will be undertaking are the University of London's External Programme (now the International Programme). The only difference between the degree potential students will receive from the new college compared to the UOL is that they will be taught the material from star lecturers rather than self-study. That, and at least the colleges involved in the International Programmes (LSE, Royal Holloway, etc.) are at least established and reputable institutions.
Of course, it's entirely debatable how effective any of these lecturers will be in the classroom. Will the teaching really be worth nearly 51,000 pounds for learning the same material? It's a farce, a scam, and I've cancelled my membership of the BHA because of it. |
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Dedicated
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 972
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Professor Grayling was interviewed on Monday 6th June on BBC Today programme in which he stated he had established links with other universities in Bloomsbury.
Almost immediately the University of London confirmed that the New College of the Humanities (NCHUM) is not, and will not be, part of the University of London and the university has not been approached to rent out facilities. Grayling has resigned from Birkbeck Philosophy Dept in order to lead NCHUM but Birkbeck announced it has no links with NCHUM and no agreement to provide them with access to any of its facilities. University College London(UCL) also deny any links with NCHUM.
Who else is in Bloomsbury? NCHUM could be stuck with no library facilities. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| The only difference between the degree potential students will receive from the new college compared to the UOL is that they will be taught the material from star lecturers rather than self-study. |
Well I guess that depends on whether you see any value in being taught by active researchers. I do, but we may have to agree to differ on that.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
Of course, it's entirely debatable how effective any of these lecturers will be in the classroom. |
Most of them already have a strong track record in lecturing and public speaking. Which is more than can be said of many university lecturers.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
Will the teaching really be worth nearly 51,000 pounds for learning the same material? |
No, in terms of absolute value it probably won't be worth �54k. But relatively, it probably will be worth more than double what some universities are offering and will be charging �21k+ for.
Besides which, it will provide the most valuable resource in academia: powerful contacts. If a student sees a Bachelors Degree as the end of the line, then they probably wouldn't gain anything more than they could get from self study. But for some people it's just the first step, and the connections you make at that stage will likely make or break your career eventually. That's what people will really be paying for here, it's what all the big name Universities trade on. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| HLJHLJ wrote: |
Most of them already have a strong track record in lecturing and public speaking. Which is more than can be said of many university lecturers. |
I would argue that they have proven strong track records in researching. If you check out some of the newspaper website comments, the standard of some of their capabilities to teach is being questioned by, admittedly, anonymous commentators who have studied under some of them. Sure, some of those may be just disgruntled at the thought of this type of establishment.
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No, in terms of absolute value it probably won't be worth �54k. But relatively, it probably will be worth more than double what some universities are offering and will be charging �21k+ for. |
One could enter any constituent college of the UoL to study with a much broader curriculum, pay less, and still graduate with a UoL degree. An unproven university versus LSE/UCL/King's, etc.? Not much of a difficult choice.
| Quote: |
| Besides which, it will provide the most valuable resource in academia: powerful contacts. If a student sees a Bachelors Degree as the end of the line, then they probably wouldn't gain anything more than they could get from self study. But for some people it's just the first step, and the connections you make at that stage will likely make or break your career eventually. That's what people will really be paying for here, it's what all the big name Universities trade on. |
You may have a point about the connections gained, but I would say that's a point for the future. At the moment, it's not a big name. It's a nothing until it establishes itself, gets students, develops a national reputation, and then develops an international reputation. That will take time.
To the above, I think only the UoL is in Bloomsbury. I can't think of any other institutions there. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
One could enter any constituent college of the UoL to study with a much broader curriculum, pay less, and still graduate with a UoL degree. An unproven university versus LSE/UCL/King's, etc.? Not much of a difficult choice. |
Or you could pay the same to an ex-poly and get taught by barely qualified staff who wouldn't even get a place on a Bachelors Degree at a top university. As I said, it's all relative.
But having studied and worked at supposedly top universities, I was generally less than impressed by academic standards from both students and lecturers. I still have more time and respect for the Open University than I do for any of the others.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
You may have a point about the connections gained, but I would say that's a point for the future. At the moment, it's not a big name. It's a nothing until it establishes itself, gets students, develops a national reputation, and then develops an international reputation. That will take time. |
Connections come via individuals not institutions. Institutions benefit indirectly, and so they hoard influential individuals. When it comes to grant applications, and in many cases journal publications, it's the name of the supervisor that carries the most weight, not the name of the institution.
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
To the above, I think only the UoL is in Bloomsbury. I can't think of any other institutions there. |
In terms of library facilities, they will still have access to the British Library, which outclasses the dismal offerings of UCL and UoL anyway. No doubt they will also negotiate online access to journals. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I dont understand the value of having a professor who is as interested in research and publishing papers as he/she is in teaching. And some may be more interested in the former to be fair. My perspective may have been clouded by my HE experience, all of which was done via the Open University.
I recently complained to the OU and changed a tutor (Im studying their Chinese course now) as he spent some time discussing his phd work rather than delivering what I wanted from him. TBH, I would have preferred the Chinese equivalent of a BA+CELTA as it would deliver a better learning experience IMO |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Something from another Guardian story today:
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Whitehall sources indicated on Monday that students at the New College of the Humanities � a new private university being set up by high-profile academics including AC Grayling � would not be entitled to government-backed student loans because its �18,000-a-year fees break the �9,000 cap.
The university's backers have said they expected students to be eligible for loans of up to �6,000 from next year in line with other private universities. They are also seeking commercial loans.
The forthcoming white paper on higher education is expected to set boundaries of a "level playing field" between traditional institutions and new private providers. Only students at universities charging under the �9,000 cap are expected to be eligible for state-backed finance.
Ministers are expected to pave the way for students educated privately to borrow up to �9,000. However, private universities charging fees above �6,000 are also expected to become subject to government requirements on widening access to students from poorer backgrounds. |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/07/student-loan-demand-may-force-cuts
The wider general story is that "The current balance of outstanding loans � �24bn � is expected to rise to �70bn by 2015-16" (unless student numbers are cut). UK higher education is in a right old mess, it would seem. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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