Job Discussion Forums

[TravelnLass]

Though I've been lurking amid these hallowed halls for months now, my plan to move lock, stock 'n barrel to Vietnam and teach EFL come Nov is growing ever closer, so I thought I'd best finally introduce myself, and seek the sage advice of those here.

A bit of background: American, native speaker with a B.S. Psy + M.S. HRM. Have been volunteer teaching ESL to refugees for 6 months here in Seattle and love it. Most definitely plan to take the CELTA (not sure yet if I'll do it in Chiang Mai or Saigon - am filling out the applications now.) I've got a bit of a nest egg (though not a fortune, 5 figures) and receive about 1k/mo from social security. Blessed with excellent health and the curiosity of a 12 yr. old - I started my own adventure travel company at 40 and at 60, backpacked solo for 6 weeks across South Africa and Mozambique. In short, not your typical grandmother of 6.

Indeed, have traveled widely (always off-the-grid) and I now look forward to the challenge of life as an expat in some g-forsaken rice paddy. I'm flexible w/ regard to teaching - though ideally I'd prefer part-time and/or tutoring, I'd likewise be up for full-time the first year to get some experience under my belt.

I've searched these forums high and low and amassed a boatload of (alas often conflicting - no surprise there) information and opinions. No doubt tons of questions to ask, but will start with the most burning/obvious:

Am I utterly bonkers to think I could teach EFL in Vietnam at the dodderin' age of 66?

[Oriented]

Just judging by the posts seen on various threads in this board, regarding various countries, in recent months, I suspect you have an uphill battle.

Many 'older' ESL teachers and newbies have been asking this question. Maybe just the world is getting older, maybe it's the economy pushing people overseas ... but the consensus seems to be that over 60 is a big barrier anywhere for new teachers, though apparently less so in Mexico and Latin America (about which I know nothing).

I don't know anything about Vietnam, either, but in China, many schools won't hire beyond 60. In what seem to be an increasing number of cases, it's 55 or 50. A few schools say that they hire up to 65, though I seem to recall seeing more of those in years past (and fewer questions from newbies about age issues).

Some posters say they (or those they know) are still working into their 60s and even 70s. But these people seem to have been hired at least before turning 65 or even 60. I'm all for "going for it" whatever your age, but realistically, I think getting hired at a first ESL job at 66 is going to be extremely difficult, anywhere.

If you can handle it financially, volunteering seems like a more plausible option.

My $0.02 worth.

[MarkM]

I think you need to be aware that older applicants have got a reputation for having more baggage and being harder to manage. So employers prefer taking on younger, more flexible and adaptable candidates. At age 54, I am already aware that this is an issue. It basically means that we can't afford to be too fussy. I also think it means that we need to play to our strengths. In my case that is having an extensive business background. So I am looking for ways to put that to good use.

It all boils down to supply and demand. If there is a young applicant for the job, you probably won't get it. This could be a problem with bigger companies and in the more popular ESL destinations. Having said that, there is a huge shortage of ESL teachers, certainly in China. If you apply to a school that is having difficulty finding applicants, and there are lots of them, they will most likely give you a chance. You shouldn't have difficulty picking up part time or tutoring work. Again, there is lots of it around here in China. This may be the way to go for you.

[mark_in_saigon]

�Just because we can do it does not mean we should�.

You did not mention if you had been to Asia in your travels, nor did you discuss why you chose VN in particular. To me, that is really the key. Certainly there are places you can teach in VN, but why would you want to? Most of the jobs are in HCMC and Ha Noi, of course. Have you ever lived in a city like that? Why would you want to? There ARE some valid reasons for wanting to, but you do not mention them, you talk about a rice paddy, but HCMC especially is not a tourists dream, and Ha Noi is only marginally better, and in other ways, worse. Not to denigrate your ability to rough it, but this is not trekking across barren badlands, this is breathing poisonous air, this is sewage being dumped into the canals, this is one of the trashiest and most polluted environments on earth, this is being pushed out of the way by drunken drivers (or maybe some of them are sober but just drive that stupidly) and road hogging taxis, not even being able to use the sidewalks half the time, and when you do, understanding that you have less rights to them than the motorbikes. I am a touch younger than you at 60, and would not at all recommend these cities for a person in our age group to settle down in, unless he/she had some very compelling reasons to. This does not apply to the entire country, (a lot of it does) but the larger the city, and the more touristy it is, the less you may like it. If you really want VN for some reason, I suggest sticking with population centers that are not so frenzied and impolite, and probably not tourist locations either, where you are often seen as a target and a rube. I would NEVER recommend a person make a major commitment to move here without first visiting for a while.

[tomaschonnie]

go for it. any school would be lucky to have you, by the sounds of it!

[LettersAthruZ]

Mark-in-Saigon nailed it 110%

Basically, because of the Global economy, there are more and more economic refugees masquerading as English teachers here. The vast majority of them DO end up in Ho Chi Minh City or Ha Noi (where you are looking at anywhere from $13USD to $25+USD per classroom hour).

You really might want to consider a tier-two city. Da Nang is as close to perfect as it gets in Vietnam, IMHO, but sadly, more and more English teachers are discovering it.
MOD EDIT AND DON'T DO IT AGAIN but there are a TON of jobs there (but EVERY Tay that I know in Hai Phong is, literally - no exaggeration, counting the days until they leave or until their contract is up, enabling them to leave Hai Phong!

Can Tho I know nothing about - except that they have really cool floating markets and that there is a ratio of 60 million mosquitoes to each human there.

HOWEVER, I suggest IF you can afford it, going into The Provinces (which are ANY area in Vietnam BESIDES Ho Chi Ming City, Ha Noi, Da Nang, Hai Phong and Can Tho). The pay is going to be near nanoscopic there (but so will the cost of living), and you really have to learn how to live without modern conveniences (you should be able to get 3G cell fone service and Internet there, but not much else like refrigerators and air-conditioning), ANY school in The Provinces would be begging to have a person of your skill and experience!!!

The Provinces are VERY underserved in terms of Tay English instructors (mainly because there is no way in hell they can afford to pay what the Big Five Cities pay teachers), but if ya want BREATHABLE air, friendly people, and not having to watch your back every twenty seconds for a theft or a scam....The Provinces may just be for you!

Sorry to drag on - hope that this helped!![/u]

[TravelnLass]

[TravelnLass]

[TravelnLass]

[TravelnLass]

[TravelnLass]

[Oriented]

Mark M wrote: "There is a huge shortage of ESL teachers, certainly in China. If you apply to a school that is having difficulty finding applicants, and there are lots of them, they will most likely give you a chance."

I think it's true. On the Angela's recruiting agency site (anesl.com) you'll see schools that list 65 as the maximum age and in some cases there is no age specified ("unrequired.") Opinions are mixed on using Angela's, I don't know anything specifically about it.

Generally, these jobs are what many people would consider undesirable: remote location, an industrial city in one of the poorer provinces, very low salary. As you have an income, not such a problem -- US$1,000 a month would be twice your salary in some of these places. And it would be plenty travel to more attractive locations over vacation times.

These schools do seem to lack applicants, so they might take you on just because of that. They might only give you a year or two, but if you just want a taste of living in Asia, it could be worth it.

There also do not SEEM to be as many age issues in Russia ... but it gets awfully cold in Moscow.

One thing I'd say is, be sure you have very good medical insurance. The medical facilities even in BJ don't generally compare well with those in the West, except for a handful of very expensive expatriate clinics, and in smaller cities, they're going to be even less developed.

Medical care here is generally cash upfront, reimbursement later (even in emergencies, there is no law requiring ERs to treat critical conditions and settle payment later) and realistically, at older ages, even for apparently healthy people, health issues become are likely. Decent insurance would at least allow for evacuations and I think (can't guarantee) that some international policies are accepted upfront at some of the foreign clinics.

I would not like to find myself in a remote area of (say) Guizhou with a health emergency and no insurance beyond whatever minimal coverage a school's policy provides.

[mark_in_saigon]

mark_in_saigon wrote:
�Just because we can do it does not mean we should�.

Not sure why that particular quote, mark - nor how it applies here. And (though I did mention that I've not just recently fallen off the travel-turnip-truck, having run an int'l adventure tour company for two decades and have traveled solo off-the-grid for more than three) to answer your question: nope, I've not been to VN specifically, but Asia is surely no stranger to me.

As you have not seen the "teaching" scene here in the larger cities of VN, you may not be aware of why most of these people are here. It comes down to a question of motivations, which you did not really discuss. Most of these guys have some specific reasons for being here, and so they put up with the difficulties. If they did not have these reasons, a lot of them would not be here. They are mostly guys, and their reasons often revolve around that fact. As you are not a guy, you likely would have different motivations, normal ones. Those normal motivations are not compelling enough to make most of us want to live in this kind of environment. I know I would not, I would move somewhere other than HCMC for sure. I even have income from the west, anything I earn here is play money, I would never live here just because of the income or the experience of teaching. Honestly, the teaching experience and living experience is much purer the farther away you get from any western influences. HCMC is the center of western influences in VN. So you can live and teach in a big city of VN, but it does not mean you should, unless there is some compelling reason to be here, which is often compelling to guys, but may not be as compelling to ladies. Actually, I am not planning on HCMC forever, I think it will shorten my life to stay here, and I think I can still enjoy the things I enjoy in other locations, so my medium term goal is to work my way out of permanent life here. If I am still here at 66, it will probably be as ashes.

[Oriented]

More about age limits, official and unofficial. International schools do pay better, so they tend to be pickier about everything I guess, including age.

http://www.internationalschoolsreview.com/nonmembers/age-article.htm

Also, note the comments and many tales of age-related barriers in http://www.internationalschoolsreview.com/nonmembers/dr.spilchuk-march2-2011.htm

Lots of people over 60 (or 50), many with apparently long and successful track records, are also hitting walls. It does appear to have gotten worse in the past couple of years. Maybe it's the dreadful economy in the West pushing lots of people overseas, as I said earlier.

Or maybe there's a lot of older teachers all about the same age, delaying retirements that they might have otherwise taken at 55 if the economy was better, but it does look like there's something global going on. This is not "good news" but I hope it is at least useful.

[mark_in_saigon]

but here in VN, a lot of it comes down to appearance. If you LOOK younger than you are (and a lot of the VN look rather old for their years), then your age may not be a huge issue. It also helps if you look trim and fit, have all your teeth, dye your gray, that sort of thing. If you make a good impression and presentation, they will think you invented fire. Certainly there are plenty of folks floating around who make a less than optimal first impression. However, the judgment they make may not be based on how snappy and appropriate your first spoken words are, as they may not understand what you are saying anyway! Your printed documentation can impress them from an intellectual standpoint, they can usually get the general idea when they see it in writing.