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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: Want to drive them crazy? |
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Does anyone want to support Saudi women's right to drive?
On June 17, women in Saudi Arabia will risk arrest by doing something you and I probably do every day: driving their own car. Help them win the right to go wherever they choose, on their own, by e-mailing the Saudi government now.
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/1400/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=7069
Regards,
John |
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babur
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia
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Warning Bells
Joined: 10 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: Always Changes
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| they [women] are in principle not free to move about outside the home unaccompanied by a male guardian, or mahram ... By law, a woman must be accompanied by a male guardian when she leaves the house... a small boy - their mahram for the day. |
pages 63 and 68-69 of Saudi Arabia; the essential guide to customs and culture.
So unless they bring along their mahrams, they will be breaking at least two laws.
Well, the day has come and gone and I haven't heard or read any news about these 'activitists' or 'troublemakers.'  |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Warning Bells,
I not only have nothing against the citizens of a country attempting to make changes, I usually applaud it.
What I dislike is outsiders, guests in a country, who feel "called upon" to proselytize their own agendas. I know that I wouldn't like someone from, say, Saudi, to come here to study and then devote some of his time to trying to get the US to be more like the Kingdom.
Here's an update:
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia By Caryle Murphy, Correspondent / June 17, 2011
"She was probably the first to put foot to pedal.
It was 12:44 a.m. and middle-of-the-night dark. She turned the ignition key, lit the headlights, and drove.
In the backseat, her supportive husband filmed his wife making history as the earliest participant in Friday�s campaign by Saudi women to get the right to drive on the roads of their country.
IN PICTURES: Behind the veil
�I felt great,� the university student said later in an email exchange. �I couldn't believe that I was in Riyadh and driving! I look forward for the day that all of this becomes as natural as men driving.�
The woman, who posted the video on YouTube, said she wanted to remain anonymous �because I'm afraid of the authorities.� She�s also not certain, she wrote, about how her extended family would react to news of what she called �my small mission.�
Overall, the driving campaign got off to a slow start with just shy of 50 women reporting � mostly via Twitter � by the evening that they had gotten behind the wheel in violation of the kingdom�s national ban on female drivers.
The campaign is perhaps the largest and most genuinely grass-roots campaign by Saudi women to demand one of the many rights they are denied in this country, which severely restricts female independence.
Under the guardianship system, women need the permission of their father, husband, or brother to marry, travel outside the country, work outside the home, and have certain kinds of medical procedures.
Though there is no law prohibiting women from driving, the government supports the social custom that women not drive, at least not in the urban areas. In rural parts of the kingdom, women drive regularly without interference.
Many senior members of the royal family and the government have no objection to women driving. But they are reluctant to upset conservatives, both men and women, who argue that their Islamic society should not follow the same pattern of women�s liberation as in Western societies.
The last time the driving ban was challenged in an organized fashion was in 1990 when more 48 Saudi women drove in a convoy around Riyadh for an hour. The women were harshly punished � banned from international travel and suspended from their jobs. Mosque preachers labeled them �whores.�
Later, the kingdom�s most senior religious figure issued a fatwa, or religious ruling, that said women should not drive. But 21 years later, that fatwa is no longer seen as valid by many Muslims, especially since women drive in every other Muslim-majority country in the world.
Other things have also changed. Some religious sheikhs are breaking their silence and speaking out against the austere hardliners, arguing that nothing in Islam prevents women from driving.
The concept behind Friday�s campaign, which was launched in March, is that since there is no law banning women from driving, they should go out and drive en masse to persuade the government to lift the ban. Women were advised not to congregate so as not to violate the ban on demonstrations.
In recent years an increasing number of women have driven, sometimes out of necessity. If caught by traffic police, they were held until their male guardian picked them up and signed a pledge that they would not allow the women to drive again.
By mid-evening Friday, there was no evidence of arrests.
It was a far different story last month, when the government took a tough line against one of the driving campaign organizers. After Manal al-Sharif posted a YouTube video of herself driving around the town of Al Khobar to encourage women to join the campaign, she was detained for nine days.
According to Saudi sources, she was released on orders of King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, who is seen as a supporter of women�s rights.
Traffic about the campaign was heavy on Twitter (much of which can be found at the #Women2Drive hashtag), which along with Facebook and YouTube was the main way it was organized.
Tweets poured in from Saudis and non-Saudis offering encouragement to women who drove or were planning to drive. Women who defied the ban and drove tweeted about the responses they got.
�I went to the supermarket and I noticed [that] some grandpa generation were upset but all the people were smiling,� tweeted Maial Shareef.
�I drove my dad�s car this afternoon. Delivered him to the jumah (Friday) prayer and back home,� wrote Mozah. �It went well. Some weren�t happy to see me pick him [up at] the mosque.�
And Tawfiq al-Saif, an author and community leader in the Eastern Province, commented that he was taken for a ride by his wife. It went �just fine,� he wrote. �[S]ome people looked surprised, others were smiling."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0617/Braving-police-Saudi-women-drivers-take-to-streets
and here
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/17/saudi-women-protest-driving-ban/
Regards,
John |
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blackwellben
Joined: 06 Nov 2010
Posts: 121
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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About 40 women took part in Friday's show of defiance. No arrests or violence were immediately reported, though al-Qahtani was later ticketed for driving without a license.
http://www.kivitv.com/story/14926714/saudi-women-tap-road-rage-against-driving-ban
Though there is no law prohibiting women from driving, the government supports the social custom that women not drive, at least not in the urban areas. In rural parts of the kingdom, women drive regularly without interference.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0617/Braving-police-Saudi-women-drivers-take-to-streets
On one hand, I'm relieved and encouraged civil disobedience was tolerated, while disheartened so few participated.
Many will interpret the low turn-out as approval of the status quo, others as indicative of repression.
| WarningBells wrote: |
| So unless they bring along their mahrams, they will be breaking at least two laws. |
How laws "on the books" are enforced is one way to define culture.
I've witnessed Saudi women about their business in 3s, pairs and alone-- though a lone Saudi woman, unless she's begging, is rare (and more often with a child or children).
The "rule" I've been told is three women (or more) can be escorted by a male not of their family, while pairs and single women must be accompanied by a family member.
Hang out at a mall, as malls are replacing market streets, and the difference is the lack of unmarried couples and small groups of single men and women flirting.
A big difference, but other than that, like any mall in the world.
Western and Asian women do walk about alone and in pairs and groups-- but are often hassled by either the religious police or lewd men, both Saudi and immigrant.
They tend to stick out as they often don't cover their heads/face/hair.
Thus, more often, they do not travel alone, and when escorted by a man or men, even if the men are hanging outside, say, an Astra grocery store, while the women shop inside, they're not breaking a law that will be enforced due to a degree of scrutiny.
All cultures maintain/impose a degree of scrutiny and it defines them. |
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Warning Bells
Joined: 10 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: Always Changes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Warning Bells,
I not only have nothing against the citizens of a country attempting to make changes, I usually applaud it.
What I dislike is outsiders, guests in a country, who feel "called upon" to proselytize their own agendas. I know that I wouldn't like someone from, say, Saudi, to come here to study and then devote some of his time to trying to get the US to be more like the Kingdom. |
Dear johnslat,
What do you think the Spanish did when they were umm 'guests' in America? So try getting your point across to American Indians. Outsiders have been responsible for colonizing, proselytizing and crusading around most of the world. So I find your statement hypocritical. And if it weren't for the French 'outsiders' who felt 'called upon' to be activists againsts the Briitish, you wouldn't have a country called the 'United States of America,' The world has become globalized and people are now starting to reach out to people who don't consider themselves serfs tied down to 'their own' country. And there are some people who have religions that prohibit them from recognizing nations and flags. Think about it.
FYI, there are Imams from all over the world who are flying to the US and many other Western countries every single day to get more people recruited for Islam. It's the most rapidly growing religion in the world. There are people flying around the world trying to press issues such as Global Warmng and a whole host of other important matters. Are you not aware of this? You have a problemm with this?!
By the way, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, like the rest of the Middle East, was carved out by mostly British 'activitists.' Perhaps you should read the book or watch the movie, Lawrence After Arabia for a tiny piece of historical information. What does this have to do with women drivers in Saudi Arabia? These women have obtained their DLs in foreign countries where they have learned by watching and being exposed to activists. Ask them if they would be opposed to a foreigner joining their cause? Chances are the 'outsiders' would be welcomed by those women wiith open arms. |
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blackwellben
Joined: 06 Nov 2010
Posts: 121
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Warning Bells wrote: |
| So I find your statement hypocritical. |
Gee John, how does WarningBells interpret your post to this forum as contradictory to the post's content?
Are we sure this guy's first language is English!
Claims to be the fastest growing religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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You are such a hypocrit, John. You colonized America, after all.
You are a tad longer in the tooth than I thought.
Frankly, I find this discussion confusing. I am glad to see the women driving, though. It is way past about time. |
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Warning Bells
Joined: 10 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: Always Changes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, but I really don't need your help to prove my point. From your own source:
| Quote: |
| According to Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world�s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year. Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. |
| Quote: |
| I know that I wouldn't like someone from, say, Saudi, to come here to study and then devote some of his time to trying to get the US to be more like the Kingdom. |
So how do you think Islam spread in the first place? Think about it? Where did it start? 'Saudi' Arabia of course. So if it's okay for them to go around the world spreading their ideals, religion, culture etc. is it any wonder that they get a taste of their own medicine with poineering liberals, 'troublemakers' and womens' liberation activists? Where do you think these women drivers in Saudi got their ideas from? |
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Badar Bin Bada Boom
Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 192
Location: Fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Warning Bells wrote: |
FYI, there are Imams from all over the world who are flying to the US and many other Western countries every single day to get more people recruited for Islam. It's the most rapidly growing religion in the world. . |
Islam is only the fastest-growing religion in the world because of the critical mass of birth rates. Muslim families around the world mostly strive for 6 or 8 children--who automatically and permanently become Muslim upon birth. Not because of conversions. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Warning Bells.
"What do you think the Spanish did when they were umm 'guests' in America? So try getting your point across to American Indians. Outsiders have been responsible for colonizing, proselytizing and crusading around most of the world."
I must have missed that history class, the one that told about the Native American inviting the Spanish to come to the New World as "guests."
And since you're apparently defending the right of "guests" to "colonize, proselytize, and crusade" (as the outsider lady in question may have been doing in Saudi,) you must feel that those Native Americans got what they deserved for inviting those Spanish in the first place, right?
By the way, I saw David Lean's epic movie way back in the 60s when it first came out. Great flic. But I don't think the British (or the French in AMerica) were "invited as guests" to interfere in in anyone's internal affairs.
Your comparisons are amazingly illogical, contradictory, and inappropriate.
Regards,
John |
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Warning Bells
Joined: 10 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: Always Changes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Badar Bin Bada Boom wrote: |
| Warning Bells wrote: |
FYI, there are Imams from all over the world who are flying to the US and many other Western countries every single day to get more people recruited for Islam. It's the most rapidly growing religion in the world. . |
Islam is only the fastest-growing religion in the world because of the critical mass of birth rates. Muslim families around the world mostly strive for 6 or 8 children--who automatically and permanently become Muslim upon birth. Not because of conversions. |
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/4421/
'Close to 1.6 billion people across the globe identify as Muslim. Growth projections paint a picture of unprecedented growth, faster than the world population growth....Globalisation has contributed to the spread of Islam around the world, either by immigration or conversion. Borders are more fluid than ever before and many people are able to make clear decisions about where they want to live and what religion they want to follow. With or without hard statistical data it is possible to see clearly that across the globe people are converting to Islam in large numbers. Islam is a global religion, no longer based on ethnicity or nationality.'
They strive for 6-8 children? Where did you get this information?
There's no reliable statistical information about conversions. But nobody becomes 'permanently' part of any belief system upon birth. Talk to the Africans who are converting from Islam to Christianity for food and aid distributed by religious charities. This is happening in record numbers! |
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Geronimo
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 498
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Warning Bells
Joined: 10 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: Always Changes
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Warning Bells.
"What do you think the Spanish did when they were umm 'guests' in America? So try getting your point across to American Indians. Outsiders have been responsible for colonizing, proselytizing and crusading around most of the world."
I must have missed that history class, the one that told about the Native American inviting the Spanish to come to the New World as "guests." |
You are definately in need of a serious history lesson about your own country. Here's a start:
| Quote: |
| They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells," Christopher Columbus wrote in his logbook in 1495. "They willingly traded everything they owned.... They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane.... They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want. Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold." |
The Spanish were once treated as 'guests' by the Indians. But genocide and enslavement were their main rewards. Americans celebrate their 'wonderful' contributions on Columbus Day, a national holiday for the USA - a day if mass ignorance, shame and stupidity. So I find it incredibly ironic and hypocritical that you as an American have a problem with guests who come to your country and 'devote some of [their] time to trying to get the US to be more like ...'
http://www.danielnpaul.com/ChristopherColumbus.html
If you find this 'illogical,' you must be lacking the intellect, education and morality to understand the point I've just made.
| Quote: |
| And since you're apparently defending the right of "guests" to "colonize, proselytize, and crusade" (as the outsider lady in question may have been doing in Saudi,) |
There's a big difference between 'colonize, proselytize, and crusade' and someone who I find to possibly be a victim of Saudi's unjust treatment of foreign nationals.
| Quote: |
| you must feel that those Native Americans got what they deserved for inviting those Spanish in the first place, right? |
Who said they were invited?!  You twist my words around and make up things I never said. Anyway, I find your comment insulting, insensitive and arrogant to say the least.
| Quote: |
By the way, I saw David Lean's epic movie way back in the 60s when it first came out. Great flic. But I don't think the British (or the French in AMerica) were "invited as guests" to interfere in in anyone's internal affairs.
Your comparisons are amazingly illogical, contradictory, and inappropriate.
Regards,
John |
You need to do some research on how the Americans won their independence from Britian in the first place. Hint, it had something do with the French who were invited to America as 'guests.'
I think you need to see that movie one more time. The British were frequently invited as guests to Arabia. And the British have most certainly interfered in the internal affairs. It's an understatement really! I can't believe you spent all those years in the Kingdom and you don't know about this. |
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Geronimo
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 498
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