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vsouth252
Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: CELTA Advice - Apollo or ILA in HCMC |
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Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked before but I have been trawling through forums and I am keen to make the right decision! I am coming to Vietnam to complete the CELTA course. I have been offered a place on the course at Apollo in HCMC but wondered whether I should apply for ILA as well. I have read patchy reviews on both schools but from the perspective of being employed by them. I am keen to hear from individuals who have completed the CELTA course with them recently. I had considered Language Link in Hanoi but I cannot fly to Vietnam in time for the course start date.
Also, can anyone recommend some good pre course reading for the course?
Many thanks for your help.
Vicky |
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toiyeuthitmeo
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Any CELTA will do, and both of those institutions are fairly well-regarded for their CELTA courses, so go with the best price and the most convenient location, which I'm assuming you can figure and decide on your own. One note of caution is to be hesitant about trusting "Job Placement" promises from any CELTA issuing language school. There are stories of these promises being broken, and also of people being roped into careers with their CELTA school when they probably could have found better options elsewhere. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: this is addressed on the sticky |
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The sticky higher up on this page has a bunch of info on ILA, and also gets into the comparison between the schools, to some extent. The admin may even move this discussion there, so look that thread over, it may be your new location for this info.
Strictly from a customer seeking professionalism from the business taking his money for the service, ILA proved to be an abject failure for me, and Apollo showed themselves to be at least reasonable, and maybe even respectful. This says nothing about the quality of the program itself, just the attempt to get signed up. Based on the way ILA in HCMC managed my case, I personally would rather fly to another country than give them my business. But if you need to get it done and one has a better location or schedule than the other, it probably does not matter. You can take the CELTA anywhere and find that if you are too experienced they may take delight in belittling you and forcing you back to kindergarten. They claim it is for your enlightenment, not because of their own egos or insecurities. Who knows? If you are not prepared to be mistreated, you really are not prepared for life in VN. There really is no recourse for most of this. Our guy Kornan had a beef with ILA, and even forced them to change their advertisements based on what he called their misleading information. If they changed their ads, seems likely he had a point. However, even he allowed that the program itself was okay. Coming from the west, we are not used to being treated the way that businesses in Asia can treat customers. It does take some getting used to, especially if you are experienced, educated, have financial status already, and expect to be treated with some respect.
One could go through the process now and find the situations reversed, with ILA being nice and solicitous and Apollo acting like jerks. It is all pot luck here. To expect professionalism and logic in VN is really a stretch. Keep your expectations low and you will not be disappointed. There are rewards for life here, but there are certainly aggravations. |
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justanuglypinoyteacher
Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
Location: Lipa City, Philippines
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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agrees with Mark...  |
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Kornan DeKobb
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: this is addressed on the sticky |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
The sticky higher up on this page has a bunch of info on ILA, and also gets into the comparison between the schools, to some extent. The admin may even move this discussion there, so look that thread over, it may be your new location for this info.
Strictly from a customer seeking professionalism from the business taking his money for the service, ILA proved to be an abject failure for me, and Apollo showed themselves to be at least reasonable, and maybe even respectful. This says nothing about the quality of the program itself, just the attempt to get signed up. Based on the way ILA in HCMC managed my case, I personally would rather fly to another country than give them my business. But if you need to get it done and one has a better location or schedule than the other, it probably does not matter. You can take the CELTA anywhere and find that if you are too experienced they may take delight in belittling you and forcing you back to kindergarten. They claim it is for your enlightenment, not because of their own egos or insecurities. Who knows? If you are not prepared to be mistreated, you really are not prepared for life in VN. There really is no recourse for most of this. Our guy Kornan had a beef with ILA, and even forced them to change their advertisements based on what he called their misleading information. If they changed their ads, seems likely he had a point. However, even he allowed that the program itself was okay. Coming from the west, we are not used to being treated the way that businesses in Asia can treat customers. It does take some getting used to, especially if you are experienced, educated, have financial status already, and expect to be treated with some respect. |
| justanuglypinoyteacher wrote: |
| agrees with Mark... Wink |
I, Kornan, confirm Mark's account above.
Go to Apollo. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I did mine at ILA. No complaints whatsoever. I booked the course via Cactus, so they dealt with all of the payment issues. Got my discount for paying early. Got $750 back when I signed a work contract with them. No problems at all.
But if you've already been accepted at Apollo, I can't imagine there's much difference between them. And yeah, as Mark said, if you have experience, be prepared to have everything you've ever done scrutinised. Based on my course, some of the more experienced teachers found this particularly difficult, and were hostile to any suggestion that they're doing anything wrong. |
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Kornan DeKobb
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| ^ But then again, look who he's with. |
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s10czar
Joined: 20 Feb 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I did the Celta at ILA last November and had no problems with them whatsoever. I think some of their training staff may have rotated out in the last 6 months but back then their Celta cadre were just fantastic in my view. Highly professional and very sincere people. Yeah they beat you up a little but that's the Celta.
The only issue I had with them (ILA) was that their facilities were a little lacking. There was only one functional copy machine and only two overhead projectors for our entire class. May be better at Apollo, may not be.
Post-Celta ILA did a fine job getting out our course evals and certificates.
Can't comment on post-Celta job opportunities though as I chose to start working in Korea. Felt like I needed a bit of a bank-roll before I tackle Vietnam...which is where I really want to be.
Good luck to you |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:02 am Post subject: ILA and their beside manner |
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| Quote: |
| Mark said, if you have experience, be prepared to have everything you've ever done scrutinised. Based on my course, some of the more experienced teachers found this particularly difficult, and were hostile to any suggestion that they're doing anything wrong. |
Yes, I knew this in advance, so I decided to see if they were so good at dishing it out, would they also be able to take it? I mean, do they have an oracle from the gods on how to use English, the rest of us can only bask in their glory? Let�s find out. I was going through the process of attempting to sign up, of course, they just want to funnel you through their application thing, they really do not want to deal with you on an individual basis. But I had some unique questions I wanted answered, so the gentleman who finally answered me responded with an email that was pretty sadly lacking in English skills. Ooops. I politely pointed out to him that he may want to check this out if using it as a form letter, obviously parts of it were standardized, as it mostly did not relate to my questions. One would think that if they were holding themselves up to be our teachers/trainers, they would have standards at least as high as their students. Also, we would hope that they could graciously accept real questions relating to what they were presenting us. The gentleman�s response was that upon further consideration, he thought it would be unlikely I would be accepted for their program.
Well, for me, this was a successful outcome. After reaching this point in my life, if I cannot be respected as a mature, reasonable person whose knowledge and understanding should not automatically be rejected due to the rigid nature of the organization I am working with (or learning from), then it is better for me to take my money and self elsewhere. I was not asking them to alter their program, but I was looking to see if they would accept that we also have thoughts, insights and skills, which should at least be respected and considered. Some of us might even consider ourselves as paying customers, asking for a quality product. ILA in HCMC certainly did not feel that way, or at least the gentleman who was working my case did not.
I also recognize that the real trainers/teachers may be first class. However, as their organization allowed this type of employee to be interacting with prospective students, I thought it would be best to use that in my overall judgment of the organization, not force the issue, and to take my money (we are paying for this you know) elsewhere.
This does bring up a very interesting thought about the kind of organization one should work for. While your income and career may be best served by working with these larger organizations that force you to follow their rigid processes, I think your creativity, happiness and ability to do your very best work may actually be more suited to the less profitable organizations that give you much greater freedom. I think if maximizing income is your main issue, then the so called tier 1 schools may be your best choice. However, if income is the issue, VN may not be your best choice in the first place. Personally, income is not my major issue. I have to put up with enough rudeness in the streets (and on the sidewalks) already. I prefer not to have my professional life also constantly treated like I have such a low level of rights that I must move out of the way and accept the fact that right or wrong does not matter as much as size, wealth and position. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:42 am Post subject: |
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Not knowing the exact questions you asked, I can't really comment. But you'll find that a lot of the rigid structure of the CELTA and their methodology actually comes from Cambridge themselves, not the schools teaching the course. You could be the best teacher in the world, but if your trainers don't see you doing the stuff required by Cambridge, they can't pass you. There were several times on the course where the trainers acknowledged someone's criticisms but said that they have to do what Cambridge says. And to be quite honest, when you're in a room with 18 other trainees, trying to take it in, it does get tiresome when some smart-arse wants to prove that they know more than the trainer for the tenth time of the day. The other issue I found with some of the experienced teachers was not that the trainers were offering advice, but that the CELTA requires other teachers to offer advice too. And on more than one occasion, I found experienced teachers had trouble accepting criticism from beginners.
As for your last paragraph, I'm not sure where you get the impression that ILA stifles creativity or forces you to teach according to a particular method. This isn't Japan. You have a course book and a test, but it's completely up to you how to teach them. But the big difference is resources. I've worked in two schools, and they were both professionally run and offered the same level of freedom to the teachers when it came to running the course, and had similar sorts of feedback from management. However, the difference was that one of the schools was much smaller and didn't have the resources of ILA. So while technically you have the same freedom, in reality, you're limited by what you can do in a way that you're not in a more well-resourced school. And while both situations can cause you to get lazy, only one is actively putting obstacles in your way. I'd also be wary of confusing "allowing you freedom" with "not caring what you do" as was definitely the case for a school my friend worked at. But then this was a school where if you wanted photocopies, you had to ask someone well in advance of your lesson so they had time to run down the street to the copy shop. 
As for maximising your income, really? It's not the worst paying gig in town, but it's hardly the best. I got paid more at my other school. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As for your last paragraph, I'm not sure where you get the impression that ILA stifles creativity or forces you to teach according to a particular method. |
| Quote: |
| This does bring up a very interesting thought about the kind of organization one should work for. While your income and career may be best served by working with these larger organizations that force you to follow their rigid processes, I think your creativity, happiness and ability to do your very best work may actually be more suited to the less profitable organizations that give you much greater freedom. |
This was a general statement about the more profitable, well known schools. It is a general impression. It speaks about larger schools generally, without singling out ILA.
My impression of ILA is based on minimal information. In my dealings with ILA, I interacted with just one person, only one. It may be the greatest school in VN, but the interaction was very unprofessional, and he was in a position of some authority, at least enough to tell me that he felt I was not a good candidate for their program based on my politely pointing out the badly flawed English in his form letter. I felt that was enough to warn me off from ILA forever. If that is the attitude of their gatekeeper, I do not want to know what the rest of the organization is like.
Interestingly, the next school I checked out gave me a document with English that was even more garbled. I (again) politely inquired if this was the level of English that we could expect from our teachers, as this seemed to be written by a non native speaker. The lady politely accepted my comment, and assured me that the course was taught by real native speakers. This was more of the kind of attitude I was seeking. Remember, we are giving them our money on this, in effect, we are employing them to do a job. Why should we not have the right to question what they are giving us before we sign up for it?
So, my interaction with ILA was quite limited. I have already shared my experience for the benefit of the new potential teachers, several times. Here, in the part of this post you are referencing, I am just questioning the ability of all so called tier 1 schools here to identify and make the best use of highly skilled individuals. Like most large organizations, it is better for them to force their regular employees into the processes they have. Most of us can probably accept that, I could, if they would manage it with grace and humility. I would guess that many expat employees here eventually take on the attitude of the host country about the relative position of strength of the employer and the relative position of weakness of the employee or the student. I know it is hard to maintain a balance when the freedom to abuse others is an institutionalized privilege, multiplied by our status as educated foreigners with large incomes. I think most of us struggle with this. |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I would guess that many expat employees here eventually take on the attitude of the host country about the relative position of strength of the employer and the relative position of weakness of the employee or the student. I know it is hard to maintain a balance when the freedom to abuse others is an institutionalized privilege, multiplied by our status as educated foreigners with large incomes. |
This is definitely a very astute statement when it comes to the establishment I work for (and I can only imagine others). The newest employee (this is also their first job in Vietnam) actually does make attempts to go against the endless rubbish that comes our way (required attendance at clubs for free, late pay etc etc). The rest of us who've been working here for a while have basically thrown in the towel and begrudgingly turn up with subservient smiles and handshakes etc. It's sad admitting it, but it's true.
I'm not saying all employers are as poor as mine (because I don't know and am not claiming to), but quite frankly, I can't really imagine particularly rosier employment situations in this country.
I'm sure there will be plenty of posts following mine ascertaining the caring and benevolent nature of their employers, good luck to those people. Am I really the only one that works for an employer that treats its employees in less than wondrous fashion though?
Before anyone points it out, I do actually have reasons to be here (one being this employer can actually get w.p.s), and it's only my problem and responsibility that I work for my employer. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
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The newest employee (this is also their first job in Vietnam) actually does make attempts to go against the endless rubbish that comes our way (required attendance at clubs for free, late pay etc etc).
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How is that going to be resolved? Too early to say?
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| The rest of us who've been working here for a while have basically thrown in the towel and begrudgingly turn up with subservient smiles and handshakes etc. It's sad admitting it, but it's true. |
Very funny. Don�t be sad, it is the same kind of bs we have to put up with when we attempt to walk the sidewalks. If you don�t like the way I drive, stay in the trees! That should be their motto.
| Quote: |
| I'm not saying all employers are as poor as mine (because I don't know and am not claiming to), but quite frankly, I can't really imagine particularly rosier employment situations in this country. |
I would imagine some are better and some are worse, and you may be somewhere in the big, fat middle.
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| I'm sure there will be plenty of posts following mine ascertaining the caring and benevolent nature of their employers, good luck to those people. Am I really the only one that works for an employer that treats its employees in less than wondrous fashion though? |
I think working at a job here where the employee is truly well pleased and satisfied must be pretty rare, or the employee has a very low threshold for job satisfaction.
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| Before anyone points it out, I do actually have reasons to be here (one being this employer can actually get w.p.s), and it's only my problem and responsibility that I work for my employer. |
I would ask, when you say here, you imply at that job, but what about VN? I have stated that if income production is the primary goal, other countries should be superior. So, in my opinion, we should be here in VN for other primary reasons and teaching is a way to support our personal goals. Am I off base on this?
Going back to your question of subservience, that was rather my point about my experience at ILA. I was really testing them to see if they were open minded and reasonable, and they failed (actually, just one guy failed, but the organization put him in the position of gatekeeper, so the organization failed in my mind). My situation is unique in that my income here is extra, not needed, and so I can afford to reject an organization. It is very empowering, but it does nothing about walking the sidewalks. We have to put up with so much bull in daily life, I cannot imagine having to put up with it all day long in our professional lives too. No wonder our guys drink so much.
I further speculated that lower level schools may be a better choice for some people. Rather than saying they are more rewarding or fulfilling, perhaps I should say they are less humiliating, frustrating or overly controlling. I have done a little work at lower level schools, where they knew the foreigner was doing the school a big favor by working there, and the tables were completely turned. Yes, there were still lots of problems, but they did not ever try to screw with me. I think it would be very interesting if people would speak to these issues in detail, not necessarily noting what schools they are referencing. I have no desire to give ILA or anyone else a black eye. My opinion is that this entire system promotes abuse, in fact, it almost forces abuse. A few of us have the freedom to avoid some of that, likely most of us do not. Thanks very much for speaking candidly about your situation JB. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| I think working at a job here where the employee is truly well pleased and satisfied must be pretty rare, or the employee has a very low threshold for job satisfaction. |
To be fair, I think if you were to exclusively base your opinions on what you've read in forums, you would struggle to find any English teachers who were truly pleased and satisfied with their jobs. Yet in the real world, when I talk to other teachers about their jobs, they largely have nothing but good things to say. Okay, maybe the odd gripe about a particular policy, but nothing drastic, and certainly nothing to suggest that they're simply enduring their jobs in order to live in Vietnam or make money, like so many people do in certain other Asian countries, that shall remain nameless. I honestly think the industry here is pretty professional compared to lots of other places. Okay, it's not Western Europe, but it doesn't seem to be the sort of wild west of ESL you get in the supposedly developed countries of Korea and Japan, either. |
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Beautiful Loser
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| I think working at a job here where the employee is truly well pleased and satisfied must be pretty rare, or the employee has a very low threshold for job satisfaction. |
To be fair, I think if you were to exclusively base your opinions on what you've read in forums, you would struggle to find any English teachers who were truly pleased and satisfied with their jobs. Yet in the real world, when I talk to other teachers about their jobs, they largely have nothing but good things to say. Okay, maybe the odd gripe about a particular policy, but nothing drastic, and certainly nothing to suggest that they're simply enduring their jobs in order to live in Vietnam or make money, like so many people do in certain other Asian countries, that shall remain nameless. I honestly think the industry here is pretty professional compared to lots of other places. Okay, it's not Western Europe, but it doesn't seem to be the sort of wild west of ESL you get in the supposedly developed countries of Korea and Japan, either. |
You've never worked/been blackmailed at AHS/IPS I assume. |
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