Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

Not sure about the policy on links here so I will not post the complete link, unless someone tells me it is okay.

tuoitrenews.vn

Is the source, here is the name of the story.

Golden age dawns, but can Vietnam grasp chance?

The writer speaks about the demographics at play here, and compares VN to other nations that have used this moment of having a youthful work force (a moment without a big overhang of older people who are draining resources) to become wealthy and successful. His story skillfully and quickly gets to the heart of some very important matters, and his conclusion is not terribly optimistic. The writer has a VN name, but his writing skills (as well as his sophistication) point to his having grown up elsewhere. Very interesting story. Here is an excerpt or two.

all preparations must be done before the advent of the golden age to create a driving force for the economic breakthrough. Vietnam seems to have failed.
History shows that success is not a given and countries have failed to grasp the "golden age."
South Korea and Ghana, for instance, were both at similar stages of development when they entered it in 1960. But 30 years later Korea had become a high-income country while Ghana remains poor to this date.


The Ministry of Education and Training has proposed a VND70 trillion (US$3.4 billion) plan to improve education and training in the next five years, mostly focusing on compiling new textbooks.
The project has been criticized for being unrealistic and wasteful, just like many of the ministry�s projects in the past.
It is awaiting government approval.
But for me, if the project fails to do two simple things, to teach Vietnamese to automatically put their garbage in wastebaskets or dustbins instead of littering ...and stay away from smoking and drinking heavily, ... the rise of the Vietnamese dragon is impossible.


Interesting comment on the garbage. I assume he means that unless they take responsibility for their actions and display more long term planning, that the entire system will just remain a mess. I do think a country could develop and still have trash everywhere, but I also get the point: respect, discipline, organization, accountability. I recall in my youth in the states, we were pretty nonchalant about jettisoning garbage from our cars and such, (and that was certainly a golden age there, the 50's and 60's) although I never saw anything that would approach the level of trashiness displayed here.

[Andy123]

Great post Mark.

Until parents get more involved in their children's education nothing will change. Parents rarely check homework or talk to teachers. They are more concerned about appearance than quality.


A certificate that has no value is worthless but many collect as many as possible to show they have been educated.

Changeing behavior is difficult.

[mark_in_saigon]

Hi Andy, I agree with your comment about changing behavior, except, to be honest, I think we are seeing behavior changing rapidly in the wrong direction. I think we are both saying that to improve behavior in a situation like this is difficult. I recall a very nice lady here, a teacher of children, who spoke to me about driving here. She said that she thought the children should be taught how to drive with respect for others, so the system would change. My immediate comment (true but I felt bad saying it) was that I was a very respectful driver in the west for 35 plus years, and when I started driving here (and I am pretty set in my ways), it took about 5 minutes to realize that respectful driving here is only going to add to the danger. In other words, you are forced to follow the process, the system. I think that is the real problem here. Sure, there are some nice people, and some people who want to do the right thing, but the system forces them to operate more or less the same way. The changes have to be forced on the people, or that is my opinion. The system may force some things pretty effectively, like the acceptance of a one party state and the process for generating income from the population, but I do not see them forcing many changes of great value. I hope I am wrong, I do see some openness in the press about the corruption, so that is a good sign. The helmet law was an attempt, but currently it is symbolic, and perhaps counterproductive. The numbers of people ignoring it creates disrespect for rules, the children not wearing them makes it seem rather pointless, the wild young boys driving with total abandon (no helmets) and seemingly immune from prosecution (I think the cops know better than to try to chase after them), add this stuff up, to me, if you do not make a rule stick, do not even try. And, if you want to protect people from themselves (in that case, crazy driving), you should tackle bigger problems like the legal substance abuse that is so ingrained in the culture.

Anyway, it is my opinion that culture and attitudes (and behaviors) are rapidly changing here, and not for the better. I think we can all add to the list, the children who used to be so respectful, the general population who used to be so friendly, the acceptance of ones lot in life and happiness despite the poverty. It is also my opinion that the trends here (and probably worldwide) to worship materialism and popular culture (or pop culture, whatever that really is) just add to the degradation of this nation. These are still motivated, intelligent people, but I think the general trend here is disheartening, or worse.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

Some interesting comments guys and I think I�ll chime in with a few of my own observations.

Rubbish: You can say what you like about �Uncle Ho� and General Giap etc but, for me, the true heroes of Vietnam are the garbage collectors .They really do a marvelous job and the fact that the streets of Saigon and Hanoi invariably look like pig stys is, IMHO, no fault of theirs. From what I�ve seen, they just quietly put their heads down and get on with the job. On my street, you see a huge difference in cleanliness after they have been through and, for a short period of time every day, the road I live on is spotless and wouldn�t look out of place in Singapore. Of course, after they have left my neighbours almost immediately start throwing out fresh garbage onto the street and the place once again quickly starts to resemble, and all too often smell, like a rubbish dump .

Traffic: Where do you start? In regards to the �wild young boys driving with total abandon�, for some reason, they are a much bigger menace in Hanoi than they are in Saigon. I don�t know if it�s true (I hope it isn�t), but I�ve heard that the locals refer to them as �hero riders�. Unless the word in Vietnamese for �hero� is also a synonym for �spiky haired idiot� than, to put it mildly, I think the term is inappropriate. Not surprisingly, if you go to any emergency room in Hanoi apparently it�s packed full of them.

I�m not proud to say it, but I�ve gone �native� with my driving here as well . If it seems safe to do so I drive on the footpath, run red lights and, when the mood takes me, occasionally drive the wrong way on a one-way street. However, I have yet to acquire an incessant compulsion to honk my horn every five seconds so I don�t think I�m quite ready for Vietnamese citizenship yet. Like mark_in_saigon said, it�s just safer to drive like a selfish jackass here and, I think if you actually did obey the traffic rules you would be the only one and your fellow motorists would probably be so shocked by your eccentricities that they might actually ram into you.

[Andy123]

Unfortunately, you must drive �Vietnamese Style�. If you do not you are going to be hurt. When in Rome.


I agree with Mark that behavior has changed a great deal for the negative. I have been here for many years and I am shocked. The people in general were so friendly before. Not anymore. They have become quite aggressive now.

I have noticed a new trend that some will actually go out of there way to �f� with you. Maybe out of boredom or just dislike of foreigners. It seldom happened in the past but it occurs frequently now. There is little fear now. I could tell story after story but what is the point.

I miss the old Vietnam. Respect in the classroom is at all time low. What I loved about Vietnam was the respect they showed to old people and teachers. I have experienced several situations where older Vietnamese people were treated so badly by young people. It was embarrassing.

The new young of Vietnam have a great sense of entitlement. They forget their history and what was done for them for their freedoms and for what they have.

[mark_in_saigon]

All of us who have been here for a while, and also had been here not too many years ago, can see the differences in this country. I imagine much of Asia is suffering the same fate, especially China. The reason I semi linked (and excerpted from) this story is because I think it brings forward a very important point. VN has this large ratio of young to old now, and because of this, is poised to move forward, IF they can take advantage of this temporary imbalance, where the system does not have the economic drain from the elderly. Lots of workers, not many retirees, not many people with chronic illnesses, more people contributing to the system and less people pulling from it. (In theory). The story goes on that a nation must prepare itself for this moment and take advantage of it, and the opinion of the VN author is that VN seems to be going in the direction of failure. He speaks of how VN is not educating its people for highly paid work, instead we are focused on being a low cost labor supplier, and then he finally discusses how we pollute our nation and allow people to smoke and drink like there is no tomorrow. (Forgive my confusing style of going from they to we, for some crazy reason, I feel like I am one of them, though like the writer, I must disown much of what I see happening here). I do think this is a very important point to understand, how we have this chance in front of us, and we likely will not take advantage of it. From a selfish perspective, this is likely a good thing, the longer the cost of labor is low here, the better for those of us who have resources (including the ruling elite?). But if you truly love these people and this country, you do want to see them fairly rewarded in their lives instead of working for 50 cents an hour in the 21st century. Sadly, for us, all we can do is take note, even if we were all ready to do our best for them, we are just a few individuals with no way to bring our ideas forward, standardize and execute them. Instead, we live this hybrid existence, educated, perhaps rich, even caring, but powerless, likely knowing that we are just witnesses to the spectacle. Still, speaking for myself, it has been one hell of a moment.

[I'm With Stupid]

I asked a teacher-trainee friend who gets paid more; teachers or cops? She said cops by a long way. There's your problem.

[mark_in_saigon]

So, because cops are paid so much, the criminal justice system is organized and professional, and because teachers are paid so little, the education system is a mess?

I wonder if there is a bit more to it than that.

[I'm With Stupid]

No, it just highlights the spending priorities, which in a country looking to exploit a generation of unburdened youngsters, can't make sense.

[mark_in_saigon]

The main income of the police is likely not directly paid by the government. Considering this fact (do we agree it is a fact?), then it just seems like another symptom of the deeper problems rather than the answer:

�There's your problem.�

Even if their primary income is their paychecks, to me, it does not seem to be the answer. Without being snarky about it, I just think that the real problems are deeper than that, and not as simple as we all wish they might be.

Beyond all this, life goes on, for them and for us. Perhaps they are right, we should just get what we can as fast as we can, let our trash fall directly from our hands to the ground, and consider it all right and natural. I do not think we will change it, and so part of living here may be accepting it and adapting to it.

[haller_79]

[mark_in_saigon]

he, comes over about one month per year. He was about 10, from Southern California, has family here. He is a native speaker of English, was born in the states to VN parents. I asked him if he liked it here, and he did, he said he liked the fact that so much is going on, all the people and activity. Honestly, we can have freedoms here that we cannot have in the west, and some of them may be more important to our happiness.

[haller_79]

All the info you need is in a book by a BBC journalist Bill Hayton called 'Vietnam: Rising Dragon'. Here are the most important facts:

The average salary in VN is still less than $1000 p/a.
The country has endemic corruption.
The country is facing potential ecological catastrophes in many regions. Ha Long Bay (its number 1 tourist attraction) is extremely polluted. The waterways around HCMC are nearly all dead, and (lets hope this doesn't happen) if sea levels rise VN would be one of the hardest hit countries in the world.
The Communist Party are extremely nervous about having (controlling) such a young population and are continually having to re-invent their policies while doing their utmost to stick to core values - it is a seemingly unworkable situation but they are sticking to it.
Vietnam barely rates above Burma and Nth Korea in terms of freedom of the press and free speech.

There are of course many positives, the country's economic growth over the past 20 years has been around 7%, the people have an incredible optimism despite what they have faced over the years and the country is young and capable.

[justanuglypinoyteacher]

Freedom of the Press? Not a very good idea for a developing country. In my country (The Philippines), we are free to say anything. Where did it lead us? We are the poorest country in South East Asia because we are honest enough to say that things aren't well. Better lie to the world and say that we're a good place for investments....lol.

I've lived in VN for 4 years. I learned alot of things. Once there was a fire in a commercial building in Saigon. Close to 100 people died. They reported only 8 and the whole place was covered with tarpulin the next day. CNN decided to report 11 fatalities.

Corruption is tolerated, but the people remains proud. Traffic is terrible, but people see it as progress. The Vietnamese are a proud people. We must not take that away from them. It is what my own people lack. Noticed when you see VN people in chaos over something, but suddenly everything is resolved after a few minutes? We should learn from them.

I once lived in a room on the 2nd floor. There was this stabbing incident down stairs. Someone called the police who arrived 30 minutes later. The police demanded 1,000,000 dong (yr 2002 rate) from each store surrounding the place and left without catching the criminals. Now you know why traffic accidents are resolved without the police. They'd impound your motorbikes and would be given back to you for 200$US.

They lack universities. So, they make exams for school children tough enough to limit the number of college enrollees. Very simple solution. Unlike in my country where education is a constant source of problem for lack of school buildings.

Every business institution in VN pays a monthly retainer for people in authority (the fire department, the education department, the police, the city administrator, etc...). But they do not complain. It is their system.

Well, my country is a goofy place unlike Vietnam.

[mark_in_saigon]

For a serious reader, I doubt that ALL the information one needs is in any one book. If so, some folks are wasting a lot of time on a lot of books. For those who can only find time to read one book, that may not be a bad choice.

Life in the big cities is changing pretty quickly, by the time a book is published, things will be somewhat different. For example, I do not quite see that same level of optimism. I would say they are pretty optimistic considering their difficulties, instead of incredibly optimistic in spite of their difficulties, and I would also say a lot of that is based on not knowing about the realities of their own system. They could learn more, but rarely go on the English language sites that would give them a more true picture of their country. A great example is the per capita income, assuming the data we get is correct. The educated young people are doing good if their guess is off by 100%, they almost always guess to the upside. But what books or data cannot tell you is the true reality. Even in the organized west, off the books income, illegal aliens, crime, those factors mean published measurements are a guess. I think those kinds of things make incomes here even a bigger guess. I suspect that the income figures of the people in poverty are fairly accurate, but even that is not a given. When you get down in the dirt with these people for extended periods and see how often money changes hands and for what kinds of reasons, you realize that the realities are not truly knowable, they are just guesses, and may not be terribly accurate. My guess is that a lot of the elites and merchants find it in their best interest to not advertise the true scope of their income.

Whatever income is, what I am seeing at this time does not give me great optimism. I hang out with the natives almost exclusively, and they generally are not doing better this last half year or so. I am guessing that as long as the west is hurting (and we are), VN is going to be stagnant, with some risk of sliding back. I think the property prices are way out of whack with reality, and that is a real cause for concern. Same thing for China, and if their property market comes back to earth, that will likely affect VN. However, whatever the real case on the economy is, I find this to be a great value for the westerner with a western income, so from a financial perspective, it is probably to our benefit. If you own property in the states, notice how you can rent a property here for half of what you would pay there, but if you wanted to buy that property here (and you never truly own it here), it would cost you twice what it costs there. Rough figures, but one of my houses over there works out to about those figures. It is crazy, but it sure makes it a bargain to rent here (but not to own).

Honestly, so much is hidden here, I wonder if we will ever truly understand it, unless viewed after the fact from an historical perspective.