Job Discussion Forums

[LettersAthruZ]

Regarding work permits, visa renewals and such.


I was up in Ha Noi yesterday and this morning, was able to have breakfast with a friend-of-a-friend who happens to be an attorney on matters of immigration.

Over phở b�, he allowed me to pepper him with questions.

So I asked him what's reeeaaally going on with this new visa renewal hassle?

He stated that he has heard about this and believes that, because of the issues with the Spratley and Parcel island chains, that this is aimed directly at Chinese workers.

Yeah, but why are T�y ESL instructors getting caught up in this by being refused IN-COUNTRY visa renewals for three months??

He genuinely did not know why....NOR did he know how long this policy was going to be in place for.

I had asked him about work permits, as I have read a trillion differing things about them on various ESL Vietnam boards.....

OK, according to this attorney, The Ministry of Labour, Invalids and Social Affairs is responsible for processing and issuing the work permit. THIS LAWYER STATED THAT, SINCE THE SCHOOL/CENTRE APPLIED FOR SAID WORK PERMIT, IT IS ISSUED TO THEM AND THEREFORE, THEY KEEP IT ON FILE!!

(Basically, this bunk about - "NO! It's YOUR work permit and you can hold it and take it all over Viet Nam with you" is a bunch of hooey!)

Now, understand, THAT being said above, that since the school/centre is applying for the work permit AND THEY WILL OWN AND WILL HOLD AND KEEP THE WORK PERMIT WITH YOUR NAME ON IT, the school/centre technically CANNOT ASK YOU TO PAY FOR IT!! If you want to pick nits, technically, it is illegal for the school/centre to ask you to shell out for the work permit with your name on it! Photographs, notarised copies of your degrees and certificates, yeah, you have to provide that at your expense, but the actual cost of processing the permit paid to the Ministry of Labour, Invalids and Social Affairs cannot be paid by the employee - the employer, according to this attorney, is legally bound to pay for the work permit.

(I am guessing, based on the above, that the infamous - "Ah, yes, yes, you pay for your work permit now and then me Director here at XXX School will reimburse you after completion of one year service here" scam is ALSO illegal......)

So what conclusions do I draw from this?

Basically, let's be blunt - with these onerous new visa restrictions (well, onerous for those without work permits), there is going to be a smaller pool of ESL teachers in Viet Nam!

This is NOT what the schools/centres want! A smaller pool of T�y means that salaries and wages will NOT be driven down.

So, based on all I've written above, I'm hypothesizing and predicting that what we're gonna see here is more and more and more schools are going to be requiring teachers to shell out for their work permits, and the ESL teacher will be praying that they actually DO get reimbursed for that cost at the end of the year.

Besides being illegal, this means a number of things -

- They can't put this down on a contract, because technically, this is not legal having the T�y teacher pay up front for their own work permit, so when they promise you reimbursement for the cost of your work permit at the end of one year of service, there is a good possibility that after 12 months you're gonna walk out empty-handed after they ask- "Huh?? Where did we say that we'd pay for your work permit?"

- Another thing this lawyer told me is that these work permits are issued FOR A SPECIFIC PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT FOR A SPECIFIC PERSON, so, no: You cannot walk out with your work permit when you quit and use it at another school....nor can the school/centre hire a new T�y and use your old work permit for them!! So since the teacher is now basically stuck at the employ of that particular school/centre for one year because they dropped a grand or so (usually around $800 - $1200USD for a work/residence permit package), this school now has carte blanche to treat the T�y instructor however they wish! What's he or she gonna do? Quit and be out the thousand bucks or so they dropped on their work permit??


There are currently a fair number of the reputable, legitimate schools and centres that DO shell out for the work permit up front (as they are legally obligated to do).

But BECAUSE of these new visa regulations, EVERY T�y IS NOW GOING TO NEED A WORK PERMIT (unless you're a traveling "back-packer")....and the number of schools/centres that will pay for the cost of processing them up front (as the law stipulates) will grow smaller and smaller and we are going to see more places doing the old "You-pay-cost-of-work-permit-up-front-and-me-director-pay-you-back" scam is going to increase.....

IF you're considering relocating from abroad to Viet Nam to teach, this is something you may wish to consider veeerrry carefully and if you ARE lucky enough to have a job-in-hand BEFORE setting foot on that airplane, MAKE CERTAIN THAT THE EMPLOYER PAYS ALL WORK PERMIT COSTS UP FRONT!!!

[Jbhughes]

Very interesting hearing from someone in the know, thanks for sharing.

The newest information that I can see regarding your post is the clarification regarding the visa issues people have been reporting and the ownership of the work permit. Personally, I don't particularly care about who owns the w.p, as it does only entitle you to work for the company written on it. This information definitely isn't new (although good to actually be clarified), I remember that Scot on the other forum writing about getting different w.p.s for different employers more than a year ago now.

W.r.t to responsibility of the w.p. fee, I'm pretty sure that I read about that somewhere awhile ago, perhaps not. The reality of my situation is that my employer just said I had to pay it and that was that.
Personally though, I feel it's a relatively moot point (unless I've misunderstood). The fee for processing the w.p. is about 400k.. pretty pale in comparison with the endless stamps on endless paid for photocopies of endless certificates that are endlessly not enough (but would be cheaper if the authorities / school told you exactly what you needed at the start rather than feeding the information piecemeal.. /rantover). The paperwork that the employee has to get is the stuff that costs. Or did your post refer to those costs LAZ? Perhaps I've not fully understood.

My impression of the main problem with everyone needing a work permit is that only some schools are really capable of/willing to go through their own steps required for their workers to be able to obtain work permits. I remember reading somewhere that companies/organisations have to have 'permission' from the authorities to use foreign labour... I would imagine that the big schools just bank roll this issue or already have done in the past such that it's not a problem. What about the smaller / less connected employers?

[CThomas]

The work permit itself is just a few dollars. All the other paperwork is what is expensive. If the employer pays for just the work permit, then they're paying something like 10-50 dollars (I forget the actual number).

This whole idea of a 800-1200 work permit package is patently false. If you get your paperwork together and do the legwork, you're looking at 200-300 in the worst-case scenario.

Employers can "keep" whatever, but all your work permit paperwork is on file at the labor office. Your new employer goes there, gets it, and files for a new work permit.

Lawyers will tell you this stuff costs more than it does because that is how they make their money. That's what THEY charge. They're not lying, but they're not telling the truth either. A US lawyer will say, for example, that "it costs about $2000 to file for bankruptcy." True. But you can do it yourself for about $200. Same with the work permit here in Vietnam.

Further, though, you're going to have to get a majority of the paperwork done ANYWAY.

So, the numbers here are inflated to reflect an attorney's standpoint and the information about who keeps what isn't complete. With these two points in mind, the premise of the remaining projections (about employer attitudes and practices) weakens a great deal to the extent it's not really useful for planning.

[sigmoid]

Thanks for posting this warning. This fiasco has been going for about 6 years already and clearly illustrates to the foreign/international community the inability of the VNese to formulate transparent, reasonable and logical policies in regard to anything.

The good news is that for those who commit the error of coming to VN or who are already there and have discovered that you cannot count on getting a visa and subsequently cannot plan on staying in VN, there are numerous other countries a short flight away.

[LettersAthruZ]

Sigmoid and JB....GLAD to share....only basically quoting what this guy told me. And, truthfully, we all know how Vietnamese law can change with either a few raindrops falling from the sky or a crisp, fresh 500,000 Dong note changing hands!!

[CThomas]

[LettersAthruZ]

[CThomas]

1. "why didn't ya just drop this stuff off that's listed here to Labour, Invalids and Social Affairs???" Can't tell if that's sarcastic or not, but the employee doesn't apply for the WP, the employer does. I'm not quite sure how to interpret this and it sounds like it's difficult for him to piece back together. I'm sure it was all a confusing time that he's glad to just be done with. I don't blame him.

2. Yes, there is more paperwork. This is an example of how the process goes. It's step-by-step and NONE of it, as far as I can tell, is done at an office that can hold on to it or demand a bribe. It's just a lot more straightforward than marriage.

3. I've heard of the marriage bribes. <anecdote>The only extra I paid while getting married here was to call in someone who was off work that day to push an important date (in a smaller coaster town) to get something done in time for a flight. </anecdote> There are indeed a couple of points in the marriage process that are murky enough for bribing. However -- all that said -- if all your paperwork is correct, no bribes are necessary. It's sort of "attention to detail + patience + perseverance" versus getting frustrated and just "pay the man." Especially if time is an issue.


I'd still like to know who he paid and for what. I'm pretty confident that it went to an agent or attorney rather than to a government office. His responses weren't very helpful in this regard, but, like I said, it could have been that his employer nor anyone else for that matter was being helpful to him and he just had to do what he could at the time. I think it would have really aided our problem identification/solving here to just answer the question outright. Meh.

Lastly, I may not know what I'm talking about. Everybody's experiences are different. Different towns, different times, different sides of the bed in the morning. Who knows.

If anyone needs any further info, I'm sure we can put our collective heads together and offer some constructive solutions.

[snollygoster]

I did not make "gifts" to government officials to marry a Viet.
I stood my ground and married a Viet and paid $0 in "tea" money. I was certainly asked for it, but straigtht faced refused.
Bit of "umming" and "arring", but after it was obvious we were prepared to wait, it happened.
Bit of a dismal affair actually-stone faced unhappy government people smashing red stamps down from great heights in dingy government offices.
Papers virtually thrown at us and told "Now you are married- get out" Asked if I could kiss the bride, and the one who missed out on the fat "gift" he was expecting said "Kiss what you damn well like".

Not the fairy-tale wedding I had hoped to give my lovely, but legal anyway.

[LettersAthruZ]

[CThomas]

I think you're expecting that an employer do a lot more legwork than they will. Any employer -- even the best resourced and most well intentioned.

Also, you or your buddy didn't answer the question of who the money went to and for why. This whole thread is based on incomplete information.

Further, nowhere did I mention that this was all the paperwork. I said specifically that it was an example part of it to illustrate how step-by-step the process is.

Lastly, I'll be more explicit about this. All the offices for all the steps leading up to a work permit do not KEEP anything. They process it while you're in the office. Standing there, looking at them. There's no pile of work.

It's absolutely unnecessary either to pay an agent or an attorney or to bribe anyone to get a work permit in Vietnam if you have all your own paperwork done. Your own includes everything in that packet that is presented to the labor office.

.

[LettersAthruZ]

[LettersAthruZ]

[sigmoid]

Keep the stories coming. You guys are making miss me the place. I may have to come back and join the party.

I can imagine the gray rooms with no lights, no fan, no A/C with the cracked tea pot on the table.

[snollygoster]

Damm....HOW LONG did you wait for the legal marriage document to be handed to you two?

We just refused to move out of the office until we got the certificate-Even then they sat arounmd and stared at us for about 2 hours.
From foirst contacvt to walking out with the thrown at us certificate took about 3 hours, which included 2 hours of staring at each other and long silences while government officials wrung hands etc.

Seems we were pretty lucky.