Job Discussion Forums

[mark_in_saigon]

This story does not seem to be getting the notice I would expect. I have not had any of my contacts bring it up, and have not heard much interest in it when I mentioned it.

One question I have is what would be the numbers in HCMC? I would hope we would have the highest pass rate, but I suspect it would still be less than half, maybe 30 to 40 percent. Any comments on those numbers?

I think it is a very important subject for a lot of reasons. It raises many interesting discussion points, not the least of which is the struggles we have interfacing with our VN counterparts. It also is a very interesting question to ask about what will really happen based on these regulations and the realities of the scores. I have often been shocked to see the levels of some of these teachers.

Would anyone like to discuss the issues this story brings forward?

English teachers fail to make the grade
HA NOI � A regulation stipulating that English language teachers must achieve required scores on international English tests come into force with the start of the new academic year, but many teachers are unable to meet the new requirements.

According to the Ministry of Education and Training, all English language teachers are required to score at least 550 on the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) exam or 6.0 on the International English Language Testing System (IELTS).

Teachers whose scores do not make the grade would be required to improve their skills and re-take the exam. Those who failed the exam twice would be forced to quit their teaching jobs.

However, surveys carried out by the ministry revealed that few teachers have passed the exams.

In southern Ben Tre Province, only 61 out of 700 English language teachers were able to achieve the required score.

In Ha Noi, nearly 150 teachers from 90 primary schools took the exams, but only 28, which accounted for 18 per cent, passed.

About 500 teachers in southern Soc Trang Province will take the exams next month, and many said most would struggle to pass and need to take short-term training courses to improve their skills.

Nguyen Thu Nga, an English language teacher at Le Loi Secondary School in Soc Trang Province, said many teachers in the area could adequately teach reading and writing skills, but struggled with listening and speaking skills, which were also tested in the exams.

"We (teachers) live in rural areas and have little chance of improving our listening and speaking skills," said Nga. "To be good at speaking and listening, you need to practise a lot."

Nguyen Hoai Chuong, deputy director of the HCM City Department of Education and Training, said improving the English skills of teachers was not an easy task and required a long time.

Chuong said it would take until 2020 for teachers to achieve the required scores. He said the department would develop plans to improve the English skills of teachers who failed the exams and want to continue their jobs. � VNS

[CThomas]

I've been really keen on this issue for awhile now and can say this much:

My VN assistant last year has chosen to stay an assistant teacher for 10 years now rather than work for the public school system, for a lot of really good reasons. She has both Grade AAA language skills and teaching skills. On par or surpassing most native CELTA English teachers, hands down. The public schools can't attract, let alone retain, precisely the people like this that they need. Now, according to this, they choose a pass/fail eval system, sans good support that I know of, rather than commit to the expenditures needed to hire, develop, and retain the top graduates (of any field), like Singapore does.

I do respect this country and this government for being so concerned about education (and so "spectacularly" respectful of teachers), but they need to send a bunch of their top teacher Uni students to Singapore and see how shit gets done.

I've come in shouting distance from facilitating the bringing of a good US teacher certification program here for about $10k a pop, but it didn't happen. The closest thing to it is out of Bangkok for $15k a pop and I don't believe they even cater to VN teachers, with their financial profiles. In retrospect, the VN market can handle neither of these. Now, after some time, I believe Singapore has a better model.

I'll save the specifics, but anyone interested in this should read about their programs. I'd suggest that Vietnam send their top students to Singapore for the schooling and 2-year commitment needed to fulfill their obligations, then bring them back here with at least 20M/month salaries as a matter of economic priority. Right now, teachers are lucky to go to China or Russia (or India, in rare instances) for career development. Singapore is about 3 hours away and is light years beyond these as well as EVERYONE.

http://asiasociety.org/education/learning-world/how-singapore-developed-high-quality-teacher-workforce

There it is. That's how you do it. I know that Singapore is English-centric, but the language and both the premises and practices of the fuller curricula are, frankly, related. For more, go to http://www.moe.gov.sg/careers/teach/career-info/training/

[snollygoster]

When I worked in a major Mekong Delta city, one of the local English teachers (50 years ild and lots of practical experience in the class-room)was doing an MA TESOL, and asked me to take a look at her thesis. She had proposed TPR, Phonics, emergent reading programs at Young Learner level, Activity based teaching for more advanced students, active class-room participation in speaking and listening for all students, and much more, and I commended her highly for her observations.
She submitted her thesis and was in lots of trouble from her professor, who told her such radical language learning techniques were not applicable to a class-room in Vietnam, and that if she did not reconsider her thesis and re-write in line with the accepted line that teacher lectures and students take notes, she would get a fail. He also informed her he would report her to the Party people for re-education in more "suitable" ways of conducting a language class unless she changed her ways.

This teacher was almost native like in her spoken English, and I had observed her numerous times in her class, and she was what I would call a "star" teacher.

Very sadly, she re-wrote her thesis, aplogised for her wrong thinking, and submitted it- She passed. Of course she never used the ways her professor suggested at any time, and she is STILL an excellent ESL teacher.

With attitudes like that, its no wonder native ESL teacher in Vietnam are such a sorry lot. There are more such tales, but one is enough to showcase this problem.

[CThomas]

Yea, this story ends similarly, Snolly G. I could go into detail but you know the drill. Same thing. Life is such a trip. People saying that 2 + 2 = 5 and such.

[snollygoster]

I actually left Vietnam over this issue- I was offered a position in another country which realized its short-comings in ESL teachers, and now I work on a government funded project that actually delivers better ESL training techniques, and practical English lessons to ESL teachers.

Initial testing on a well-kmown placement test had the local ESL teachers at predominantly "Beginner" level, with only a few at "proficient" and thats in a sampling of over 240,00 ESL teachers.

At least some countries recognize their problem and do something practical about it.

Yes it costs, but the cost of NOT doing something about it is much higher in terms of lost revenue via trade and tourism that could have, but probably will never, take place.

[CThomas]

Snolly G: I hope you that I know what you're talking about first hand, but I'm hunkered down here and loving these days. May the wind always be at your back, sir.

[I'm With Stupid]

I heard a story second-hand (so take it for what it's worth) about a friend of a friend who was conducting a teacher training scheme in the Mekong region, and from hundreds of teachers level tested, only 5 were considered to have good enough English to take the course.

I also briefly went out with a girl who was training to teach English. She was also a TA at a couple of language schools, but her English is the worst I've heard from a TA. She said she chose to teach English rather than history (which she's much better at) because it pays more, since you can work in the private language schools. If she's refusing to work in the public schools, I can only imagine the standard of teachers that are working for them rather than private schools.

The other bizarre situation you end up with is someone being taught by someone who's nowhere near their level in English, because seniority rules, not ability. Some of these university students are really quite good at English, yet they're being taught by someone who would struggle to hold a complicated conversation. I remember laughing when my friend told me she was advised to work on her pronunciation by her university professor. This girl is as close to native as you can get, without any trace of a Vietnamese accent, and the professor......well, isn't.

[mark_in_saigon]