Job Discussion Forums

Qaaolchoura · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: Negotiations

So I just got my first interview for an unadvertised position. Assuming I get an offer with unacceptable salary or conditions, but the school is willing to negotiate, what should I shoot for?

No more than 5 workdays and 30 teaching hours, certainly. Health insurance is a government program that schools generally do with the getting a visa bit, right?

As for pay, with no experience according to my CV, what's a reasonable starting salary, with and without housing assistance? Should I ask for return airfare?

Anything else?

Thanks,
~Q

lucia79 · Joined: 18 Jun 2011 Posts: 156

Shoot for the stars! The worse thing they can say is, NO! You'll bargain, going back and forth, and then in the end you'll come out somewhere in the middle.

Calculate how much you need to live on and don't accept anything lower than that. 5 days a week or less is what you probably want so don't let them pressure you into 6 days. Many schools include airfare into the package. If they don't offer, it doesn't hurt to bring it up. As far as housing goes, I'm not sure what you prefer, but I always prefer to have the school keep their hands out of where and what apt. I live in. I rather find something on my own.

delal · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 251 Location: N Turkey

Good news!
Language school or K-12?
If the latter:
A friend works at a private k-12 school and they work a basic of 24 contact hours a week; anything over that is paid as overtime. The school isn't in Istanbul but they start at 2,000-2,400 tl a month.

Yes, once you have the work visa they can then pay your govt insurance premiums. Once registered you can actually check online to make sure they are paying your premiums (and not just the minium wage premiums....)
Watch out as at k-12 schools it's unfortunately quite common for teachers to have attend meetings/training workshops/parent-teacher consulations at the weekend. Evenings can also be taken up with meetings/virtually compulsory social events which aren't paid. Some schools go further and try and make you attend social events, even go away as a "big, happy family" for the weekend.
I agree with Lucia re housing but in your case it might be an idea to bring that up as an option for the short term

Sorry for highlighting the potential pitfalls of working here yet again but there are a few.

PS How come it's not advertised?

Qaaolchoura · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject:

So, the offer I got is 2000 TL + 250 housing allowance (they're assuming I find an apartment to share. I plan on spending part of my salary instead should I take this job). Nothing about return airfare, I suppose I really should have asked, since others for this school have obtained that (based on Google). Maybe it's not too late.

The rules on hours are overly flexible, but I pushed on that, and think I got an OK deal, though it could be better. I'll have to confirm on the contract, but I believe I got a guarantee of no more than 5 days a week, no split shifts, and no more than 120 hours/month. On the other hand, I won't know my schedule far in advance, and overtime (above 100 hours/month) is calculated on a tri-monthly basis).

This school appears to be well run, the staff seem to be friendly, well-educated and professional, and they appear quite ready to get me a visa. Most importantly, I'd be teaching adults and high school students, no young 'uns. I wonder if should have pushed more, and maybe still should. I'm not sure how much leverage I have, and what other opportunities may come up.

Thoughts?
~Q

And delal:
As I understand it, positions are frequently unadvertised. Schools tend to get a lot of resumes from applicants already in Turkey, which means they only have to advertise if all of the applicants (*cough* backpackers *coughcough*) are unsuitable.

lucia79 · Joined: 18 Jun 2011 Posts: 156

2250 TL is good, some small private schools are paying this. It's nice they are giving a housing allowance. If I were you I'd ask about the airfare. If other employees get it, then why shouldn't you?

istanbulian · Joined: 10 Feb 2011 Posts: 25

*****

lucia79 · Joined: 18 Jun 2011 Posts: 156

I stand corrected!

It is at the low end, but seems to be what some small private schoosl (K-12) are paying. I'm thinking of K-12 schools in your situation, but I think you said something about no more than 120 hours a month and no split shifts, so are you at a language school?

Qaaolchoura · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject:

It is a private language school, predominately a mix of college and high school kids. A little bird I met through the grapevine told me that:

1. I shouldn't sign a contract at all, because they will "own" me.
2. It's highly unlikely that I will get a work visa, despite what I was told. Of 45 foreigners she knows only one has a work visa. And as far as she's aware, only the Wall Street Institute and the K-12 schools get their employees visas.
3. It's better not to have a work permit anyways, because I can stay in Turkey on a residency permit (using a common but ethically questionable method of proving sufficient funds), and schools won't come after teachers if they leave.

Thoughts on these observations?

Thanks,
~Q

istanbulian · Joined: 10 Feb 2011 Posts: 25

*****

gloomyGumi · Joined: 29 Dec 2010 Posts: 353

did the 2 individuals above need TEFL certs to get their offers? Just curious. I heard thru another grapevine that THAT "law" can be bent as well. What are the chances the job would be legal if no TEFL cert?

Qaaolchoura · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject:

Thanks Istanbulian. Definitely, not teaching children again is worth those risks you mentioned.

GloomyGumi: Did I say it was two individuals? It was one individual, relating stories about various friends. (If I did say that, I was probably talking about other people on Dave's from awhile back.)

As for no TEFL cert, I heard one story about a Croatian who couldn't speak English well and had no certificate or experience. Said Croatian was nevertheless hired. If you're not being hired legally, it follows that there are absolutely no legal requirements.

I'd normally recommend not working for an employer who doesn't check that sort of thing, but I suspect that if you have enough experience, I'm sure a half-decent school will overlook that. I wish you the best of luck.

~Q

delal · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 251 Location: N Turkey

If there's a will there's a way and schools can get around laws.
Not sure if lang schools would do this but there's a rumour that a certain k-12 tipexed out someone's name on a TEFL cert and inserted someone else's to get a work visa and also instead of writing someone down as a teacher, they have them on their books as office staff
Gloomygumi-why don't you just do an online TEFL and get it over and done with?

Qaaolchoura · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject:

I hate to derail this topic when I'm still looking for more advice, but...

Online certificates aren't generally taken seriously, but then here, the same seems to be true of certifications in general. (They do care though about a college education.)

I've noticed there seem to be three levels of standards, at least in ads. Level 0: who cares?, Level 1: 120 hour + course including teaching practice, Level 2: CELTA or Trinity. When I've gotten to interview portions, they ask a lot about your TESOL course. Here in Turkey they don't ask at all. I find that annoying, but not nearly as annoying as the far too many ads saying that non CELTA/Trinity certified applicants need not apply. (It's far easier than sussing out what other programs might be reputable, even if it practically eliminates non-European applicants.) So alas if you're in Europe and looking to get certified, do the CELTA.

And now yes, any more thoughts on those three points I mentioned above would be much appreciated.

~Q

coffeespoonman · Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 512 Location: At my computer...

1. Contracts are NEVER a bad thing. They're also SELDOM a legal thing, especially since you'll never see a work permit; hence, your contract will never be legally binding.

Besides, in Turkey, it's all about oral agreements and drinking tea. No one ever really pays much attention to what's in the contract, other than perhaps salary.

2. You will NOT get a work visa, unless you work at the same school for several years and they think it's in their best interest to have 1 or 2 legal teachers to show off to the authorities. And think about this - this school has already lied through their teeth to you about your legal working status, which could result in your being deported, jailed, or faced with exorbitant fines. Those things aren't likely to happen, but I would NEVER deal with a company who wasn't upfront about those things. Early on, I worked a few places without a work permit, and at least they told the truth. I wonder what else they've lied about (split shifts, contact hours, work days, etc.)...

3. That makes no sense. Work permit > working illegally. Sure, a residence permit is enough to stay, but you're lying at the border, in potential danger (or awkward situations at the least), and schools won't come after you anyways...

Add to all that, the pay is fairly low, and the contact hours are on the high side. 250 for housing is just a joke. I got more than that in 2005 for housing, and things are a lot more expensive now. And that was for a contract similar to yours. If this were your first job ever, you may want to consider it. However, you should get AT LEAST 2500 + housing, and people who are straight with you from the get-go. Don't let them take advantage of you.