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metal76
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: Newbie question about my chances..... |
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I am wanting to teach English in China (More specifically, Shanghai). I have a BA in Communications and have been a substitute teacher for the Los Angeles Unified School District for ten years teaching elementary students. My question is: With these qualifications, do I need to take a TEFL course to teach in China? What are my chances without this certification? Also, does getting a TEFL get you some support from someone that does not have this cert? Almost like being in a union of sorts?
Thank you.
PS: Does having a Z Visa allow me to travel around China too or do I need a tourist visa as well to leave my specified work location? |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Newbie question about my chances..... |
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| metal76 wrote: |
I am wanting to teach English in China (More specifically, Shanghai). I have a BA in Communications and have been a substitute teacher for the Los Angeles Unified School District for ten years teaching elementary students. My question is:
1) With these qualifications, do I need to take a TEFL course to teach in China?
2) What are my chances without this certification?
3) Also, does getting a TEFL get you some support from someone that does not have this cert? Almost like being in a union of sorts?
Thank you.
PS: Does having a Z Visa allow me to travel around China too or do I need a tourist visa as well to leave my specified work location? |
Numbers were mine for clarity.
1) Sub teacher. IF you have a valid teacher's certification/license then you do not need a TEFL cert. to get a visa.
2) Your chance of finding a job in china within the next 90 days is about 100%.
3) No and NO. It is simply an entry level teaching certification.
Yes, you can travel around MOST of China during your vacations on your "Z" visa. Some locations (Tibet as but one example) require special permits regardless of your visa class. |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I know that this is an old-fashioned public service type of concept, but wouldn't it be a good idea to train so that you have some idea of how to teach a language? |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| coledavis wrote: |
| I know that this is an old-fashioned public service type of concept, but wouldn't it be a good idea to train so that you have some idea of how to teach a language? |
 good idea. I agree, though I could understand that with the economy being what it is, some people can't afford it. Still, in an ideal world everyone would get at least a TEFL cert. Or at least do a bit of research at their local library. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| coledavis wrote: |
| I know that this is an old-fashioned public service type of concept, but wouldn't it be a good idea to train so that you have some idea of how to teach a language? |
Not really, because the certs -- and the TESOL field in general -- are built entirely on pseudoscience. There is no evidence whatsoever of a relationship between TEFL certificates and better learning outcomes for language students. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Not really, because the certs -- and the TESOL field in general -- are built entirely on pseudoscience. There is no evidence whatsoever of a relationship between TEFL certificates and better learning outcomes for language students |
I'm not sure what you are basing this on. There is a very wide body of research over the past fifty years and more that demonstrates the relative effectiveness of different approaches and methods to second language acquisition.
What publications or other evidence are you basing this statement on?
I'd also be interested in what certification(s) you hold, which you've found to be without value in your teaching practice?
Entry-level certs are just that - a bare introduction to a few of the approaches and methods that have been found to be generally effective, as versus pure grammar-translation or pure drill, for example (though there are useful moments in some situations for each of these as well).
Further, while the considerations behind the decisions are not public, the Canadian government (to give one example) will not allow private language schools to employ 'teachers' with less than a CELTA or equivalent certification.
It's very difficult to compete on the North American or European markets without an on-site certification that includes real teaching practice.
Whether that is due to a recognition that certified teachers are 'better' in general, or if it's purely market driven isn't documented, but it is the reality. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like to see a reference to a single piece of research, published in a peer-reviewed academic journal, showing that students whose teachers hold the CELTA are more successful in learning to use English. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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I do not think that there are studies specifically based on CELTA.
This would be a pretty useless study as CELTA, while the best-known, is far from the only standard entry-level certification course.
However, there are numerous studies regarding the effectiveness of a range of approaches and methods, at least the basics of which are covered on a CELTA or equivalent course, as I stated above.
This is why employers in many regions strongly prefer certified teachers - they presumably have had at least an introduction to successful approaches and methods. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| This would be a pretty useless study as CELTA, while the best-known, is far from the only standard entry-level certification course. |
That is absurd. If it could be shown that CELTA made better teachers, a study would be out there. The peddlers of CELTA would see to that, just as the marketers of any pharmaceutical product make sure that supporting studies are out there. At any rate, if not CELTA, then where is the peer-reviewed evidence that any "standard entry-level certification course" produces more effective teachers? Wouldn't you think that if it were the case, there would be a study somewhere to support the notion?
| Quote: |
| However, there are numerous studies regarding the effectiveness of a range of approaches and methods, at least the basics of which are covered on a CELTA or equivalent course, as I stated above. |
Easy to say. I'd like to see one such study -- one where the students actually come out speaking English more effectively. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| That is absurd. If it could be shown that CELTA made better teachers, a study would be out there. The peddlers of CELTA would see to that, just as the marketers of any pharmaceutical product make sure that supporting studies are out there. At any rate, if not CELTA, then where is the peer-reviewed evidence that any "standard entry-level certification course" produces more effective teachers? Wouldn't you think that if it were the case, there would be a study somewhere to support the notion? |
I still wonder what study you can cite that shows certification courses do NOT produce more effective teachers, and what certifications you have that you have found useless to your own practice.
Again, there are numerous studies that demonstrate more versus less effective types of language teaching. For a very broad example, grammar-translation has been demonstrably less effective in producing functional second language learners than more function-based approaches are.
If you're up to the reading, here is a link to a comprehensive chunk of one of the best books on comparative approaches and methods. In case the link doesn't work, you could try to pick up a copy of Richards and Rodgers' Approaches and Methods in Language Learning. I'm sure you would benefit.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=9mQ9l3K73BoC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=approaches+and+methods+in+language+teaching&source=bl&ots=21wZm7VCWh&sig=r07torSmrS_Qg6xoTtVqMoY0eGg&hl=en&ei=iwB9Tv2pHaHl0QGa593tDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Studies aside, the fact is that in some regions of the world, including Europe and North America, a CELTA or equivalent is a basic tool for getting entry-level jobs. Employers are obviously convinced that the course produces more effective teachers.
Without one, you simply can't compete on the job market in these regions effectively, regardless of whatever you might think about the courses and their products. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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and just to add fuel to the thread hijack..
The OP is a primary school teacher and from personal experience I can state that the CELTA is about one step away from useless in a primary classroom.
A CELTA (or other TEFL cert) would be a waste of his time and money headed for a kids school in China.
A day or 5 spent reading up on methodology for teaching L2 to young learners would be a much better use of his time.
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I still wonder what study you can cite that shows certification courses do NOT produce more effective teachers, and what certifications you have that you have found useless to your own practice. |
It is not my job to prove that things are NOT effective. It is not incumbent on me to prove that eating dirt is NOT a cure for heart disease. If someone came along and claimed that it was a cure, it would be incumbent on that person to show some evidence. Otherwise I could say, "Hey, spiral78, wearing red pants makes an EFL teacher 14 times more effective -- and I challenge you to show me a study proving that's not true."
If someone claims that CELTA or any other certificate makes better teachers, it's up to that person or group to prove it. A study in a peer-review academic journal is the gold standard. I challenge anyone to link me to such a study for CELTA or any other certificate.
Until then, it's all just claims. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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No. It's the job market reality in much of the world. Employers are convinced.
By the way, I agree with ttompatz in this specific case. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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No. It's the job market reality in much of the world. Employers are convinced.
By the way, I agree with ttompatz in this specific case. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe, but the OP asked specifically about China. |
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