Job Discussion Forums

[Sudz]

Hey there.

I'm looking for a gig (probably a little over a year) to break even on (probably Jakarta, though Yogya would be okay too). Despite the new regulations, is working 'under the table', still common?

This would be part-time, and - as mentioned - I wouldn't be looking to save (but at least break even).

[Tudor]

[Sudz]

Thanks for that.

How risky might it be? Technically, there is risk here in Ho Chi Minh, but in reality little ever happens.

[Tudor]

I wouldn't say it's a huge risk, but it's a real one nonetheless.

I've been at work on two occasions when Immigration have come calling and classes have had to be cancelled whilst all the teachers were sent home to get their passports and work permits (KITAS). Fortunately, everyone was legal but these guys can be quite unpleasant and were interrogating teachers and threatening them with prison if they were found to be illegal.

I've also heard (unsubstantiated) reports of teachers having to hide under desks or run out of back doors when Immigration have come round. The punishment for working illegally is deportation and a maximum fine of 50 million rupiah and/or five years imprisonment. This will no doubt be pooh-poohed by some expats because they have the mentality or belief that they will be able to buy their way out of any legal trouble. Whilst I don't doubt that you could 'negotiate' a less severe punishment, I think deportation and a fine would be inevitable. I'm fairly sure the Indonesian authorities are happy to make examples out of foreigners who think they can come to their country and behave as they please.

So there you have it Sudz; probably not a huge risk but not much fun if you do get caught. Don't forget that you're also at the mercy of your employer as well as you will have no employment rights. It's your call!

[basiltherat]

[Sudz]

Hmmm sounds pretty dicey. Thanks for the heads up!

A seperate question: once I complete the MA TESOL, might this count as an "English related degree"?

[Tudor]

See my reply to Blue Tortilla in the New Visa Requirement thread.

But, in all honesty, if you have an MA TESOL why on earth would you want to come to Indonesia? Qualifications count for very little here (unless you have an English or Education degree of course and that's only to satisfy visa requirements) and teachers get jobs based on who they know not what they know. I dare say there's an element of that everywhere, but a meritocracy Indonesia ain't. Just my opinion of course but if you really want to teach here you'd be better off forgetting about your MA and finding a school who can get you a work permit.

[Sudz]

Hey Tudor.

Actually, I'd ideally like to find work while studying for the MA TESOL, and then taking off after completion. I guess I was just cursious as to whether or not I could work there legally after completion. The reasons you've stating for not working in Indonesia (with an MA TESOL) are good ones.

I'm still finding out more about this whole KITAS thing. It sounds like there are ways around the English degree, though it sounds as though working there with no degree is sketchy at best.

Perhaps I'll contact some school directly in Yogyakarta to find out more.

[Tudor]

Hi Sudz

Yes, I've been following your KL thread on the General Asia forum as the Nottingham MA TESOL in KL is something I'm considering in the next year or three.

If your motivations for working in Indonesia rather than KL are financial then bear in mind you won't be much better off in Yogja than you would be in KL. Like Bali, Yogja is seen as a desirable place to live and work and this keeps wages low - maybe a third of what you could earn in Jakarta. I know airfares can be cheap but don't forget you have to pay to enter (250,000rp) AND leave (150,000rp) Indoneisa so if you're doing it every month or two it soon adds up. Furthermore, I don't think many schools would get a KITAS for a part-time worker (even if they could) so you'd be back to the problem of working illegally on a 30-day tourist visa and all that entails.

I would forget the KL-detractors and give it a go there. If ELS (or whoever) like you then they may give you extra hours plus you could probably get some privates which would be a lot less risky than being a sitting target in an Indonesian language school. Also, despite what anyone says about the BC, if you're actually in KL and they need someone for a few hours a week then who knows? It's not as if you're a 'backpacker teacher'.

Moreover, I think KL is far more pleasant than Indonesia (well, certainly Jakarta) but that's purely a subjective view! Let us know what you decide.

[Sudz]

Thanks for the input.

Finance is part of the reason (or should I say lifestyle). Looking more into it though, I don't think that I would be much better off in Indonesia. I've been to both places, and think I prefer KL over Jakarta (though I do really like Indo and would like to see more). I found Jakarta a little too spaced out (a little like Manilla) for my liking (though a scooter might help things.

I am leaning towards KL at this point. I have heard that Indonesian is an easy language to pick up, which would be one thing I would work on if there. I'm told though that the languages in Malaysia and Indonesia are quite similar though (if not the same....I'll look into it more after work).

Nottingham looks like a good option, and I would consider it if I were you (ok, I haven't exactly started it, but I've heard good things). Quite pricey, but a good option.

Some people feel as though KL is a little 'sterile' compared to perhaps Jakarta, but it's worth noting that I HAVE worked in HCMC for the last several years, and wouldn't mind something a little more sanitary.

Good luck with everything

[Tudor]

You're welcome Sudz.

I'd choose KL over Jakarta any day of the week - the only reason I'm here is because I'm in a relationship. People describe Jakarta as exciting but, frankly, I find it rather dull. Of course, from a sensual aspect it's exciting: the sights, the sounds and the smells - pretty much like HCMC I'd imagine. But, once the novelty of seeing whole families on motorbikes and busking ladyboys wears off (after about 3 months) the reality of living in an overcrowded, dirty, smelly, polluted, flood-prone and traffic-congested city sets in. The problem is there's nothing to actually do in Jakarta; you only have to look at how few pages guide books devote to the city to see there's a dearth of entertainment and activities outside of eating, drinking and shopping. As for going outside of Jakarta at the weekend, well I simply don't have the energy to get up at 5am or else battle through the traffic after a week of work.

Of course, I understand that mine is perhaps a minority view and I know a lot of people who are happy here, but a lot of the reasons they give aren't particularly tangible or relevant to me. Great nightlife - not interested, did that in my 20s. Lots of casual sex - again, not interested, in a relationship. Friendly people - yes, generally pleasant, but also nosy and small-minded. The attention and feeling of being 'someone' - I have no self-esteem issues and am quite happy being annonymous and ignored.

The kind of people who say KL is 'sterile' have probably never ventured further than Bukit Bintang and KLCC. I think it's a fantastic, vibrant city with great food, some interesting areas and, most importantly, public transport that actually gets you where you need to be quickly and comfortably. Plus you have the rest of the peninsula within your reach! Again, different strokes for different folks, but I'd move there (or Singapore or HK) tomorrow if I could.

Good luck with the MA, I may pick your brains in the future with regards to this. If you have any more questions, please ask. I'm far from being an expert, but I am a nosey bugger who keeps his ear to the ground!

[KayuJati]

[Sudz]

Hey Tudor.

I pretty much agree with your opinion on Jakarta (from my limited time there).

Ho Chi Minh does have a similar gritty, raw, developing feel, though I'd have to say I prefer it (actually not a contest for me). Much more concentrated than Jakarta, and quite easy to get around in (as long as you avoid rush hour traffic...I now curse anything on 4 wheels!) It doesn't have Jakarta's night life though, that's for sure (though this is becoming less important to me over time).

As for 'wanting to be anonymous', I totally agree. Being razzled as the 'rich foreign white man' gets old pretty fast. KL seems like a more sophisticated city in that regard, and people don't really seem to care about the white face ( my observation from my limited experiences there). Fine by me.

Feel free to ask away about the MA in the future. Cheers

[Durian Tango]

[quote="Tudor"] But, in all honesty, if you have an MA TESOL why on earth would you want to come to Indonesia? quote]

I'm a bit surprised you would say this. Why shouldn't someone with an MA in TESOL not want to work in Indonesia? Personally I'm a big fan of Jakarta and a HUGE fan of Indonesia and I think many people from those who barely got through 3rd grade to those with a PhD would enjoy this country. I recently spent some time in Eastern Indonesia and it blew my mind.

It's not always about the money for everyone you know, some people live here for the experience.

[Tudor]

I think maybe you've misunderstood my post DT, it wasn't a criticism of Indonesia as such; I was simply making the point that, from what I've seen, having good qualifications (i.e. DELTA or MA) doesn't seem to mean a lot here. Teachers seem to get jobs on who they know not what they know - maybe you disagree with me on that, but I can only judge on what I've seen and heard.

No, it's not all about the money but I would guess that anyone who has invested a lot of time and money in furthering their qualifications would hope to see a return on their investment, if not in a good salary then at least in a position with a decent school, university or whatever. I think therein lies the difference between people who are in EFL as an experience and those who are in it for a career. Neither is wrong nor does one necessarily make a better teacher than the other, but, put simply, different people have different priorities.