Job Discussion Forums

[toiyeuthitmeo]

Hi all,

I know there are other resources for housing in VN, but I figured my karma is pretty good on this board so I'd give my questions a shot. Any info you can share, much appreciated.

I'm looking for a house in D5 in Ho Chi Minh. In my several years of living in VN, I've somehow managed to not live in the city until now, so here are some issues...

1) Anyone know of any houses avail in D5? 3-4 BR a must.

2) Are all house-finding agents dodgy? Can you recommend a good one?

3) I've been very lucky to have lots of VN friends where I live who I can trust for help and leads when I've needed a place. Do any of you know anyone like this in SG?

4) What do I want to be wary of when it comes to dealing with possibly dodgy house finding agents? Any tips for dealing with them?

5) What are some ways to side-step the middle-man, which I presume the house finder is?

6) What is the standard demand for upfront payment in SG these days? I've been hearing three months rent due upon moving in. That sound right?

7) What steps have you taken in your experience or can one take to try to ensure you're not dealing with a landlord who will refuse to return a deposit, as I've heard that's a frequent occurrence.

As I know being a foreigner more than likely I'll pay an inflated price, what kinds of things might I try bargaining for? Is it a renter's market or a landlord's market? Could I push for free house-cleaning or free internet/cable or something as part of my negotiations?

9) Any websites to suggest beyond craigslist?

10) My VN is ok and I can get by chatting and emailing. Are their any websites that locals primarily use where I might find better deals? Could I walk about D5 looking for "For Rent" signs and just pop in? Anyone tried these steps?

Thanks for any item you can contribute to. Perhaps a lot of these questions answered will be useful to more than just me.

Cheers

[mark_in_saigon]

I would say the main feature of this market is its lack of transparency. Think of the amount of unprofessional behavior you see in the schools, and then assume that same level is in the property markets, maybe more. VN is supposed to have one of the lowest levels of transparency in property markets in the world.

Take a look at Craigslist. The average price is like $1,000 or so. What is the true average rent in HCMC? Maybe $150 or so? There is nothing offered there for the local population, there are not even any ads in VN for the affluent VN. Find an ad, then do a search for identical subject lines, you will find the average ad is there about half a dozen times, up to 15 or so. Lately advertisers are starting to claim in their subject lines �real pics�, which implies most of the ads do NOT have real pics, which is likely true. Using the agents is a great frustration, yet it seems the individual owners do not advertise on CL, so you are mostly going to find these agents there. Craigslist is pretty much a disaster for rentals in VN. I imagine they are not ALL dodgy, but most of the ones I have dealt with are. Of course, this is just another symptom of the overall nature of the system here, why should anyone expect any VN business system to be professional? Even an honest agent is swimming in the sea of corruption, so not sure how much difference he can really make. When I contact agents, I politely tell them that if they exhibit those low standards, don�t bother responding to me, and almost all of them comply by not responding. They know they are scammers, and if someone who understands their process comes along, they are wasting their time, so they just throw in the towel.

I can tell you that on the outskirts, one can find housing at a lower price, but it is not easy. This does not imply that the good price is a huge bargain, rather almost everyone is trying to get an unrealistic price from us, and only reluctantly bows to reality. I imagine some of us are na�ve enough to overpay for housing too, so this probably keeps their hopes up.

Always think in terms of dollars per sq meter, so you have a good idea of what you are really paying. I REALLY would prefer not to pay more than $10 per sq mtr, and with a bit larger unit, would rather it be more like 6 or 7.

I also think it is a great strategy to stay in hotels as long as needed, as they are really not any more expensive than apartments on a per mtr basis, especially when you factor in the utilities. Note no deposit is needed, nor is any time commitment. Doing this gives you the leverage to just keep saying no to these unreasonable expectations they have in terms of rental price and these crazy deposits. It is my firm belief that the great risk in the relationship is not the renter doing a bunch of damage or skipping out on the rent, instead the risk is the unscrupulous landlord screwing the renter out of his deposit. I tell them this, and do not accept an unrealistic need for deposit. I own rental properties back in the states, and never require even an entire months rent for deposit, but I do reject bad credit. These folks aren�t sophisticated enough to even check credit, they prefer to try to come up with some huge deposit, which is likely part of their income maximization strategy.

Sorry this is more of a what not to do rather than a what TO do. As we all know, most of doing business is just a big mess here. My best advice is have a trusted VN associate to manage it for you. He/she can act as an agent, this stuff is not that technical, you just need a real VN to size it all up for you, and help you avoid spending your expensive time being shown places that you would never choose. Your helper can more easily size up the agents, they can figure out if one is nominally honest a lot quicker than we can.

[The Mad Hatter]

Dont pay deposit of more than one month. Its a renter's market but no one knows that . No one really needs to rent their property so it's easy to hold out for a super high price. People just hold onto it and patiently wait for years it seems. If you find someone who really wants to rent to you they will probably give you a better deal.

[cb400]

Lots of small apartments for rent where I am in D1. 250-350 with month by month payment. Drop me a line its worth checking out.

[bludevil96]

Deposits should be no more than 1 month down w/1 month deposit. People who says that it lack transparency doesn't know how to access the market. Price of apartments vary and as much half of them, most hi-end apts, are negotiable. The problem for many foreigners is that it's listed in Vietnamese on websites like muaban (buysell) and raovat. Are all finders dodgy? That's like asking if lawyers are honest people. Unlike pronunciation rules, there are no exceptions in this case. If you work in D5, expect the area to be highly dirty as well as congested. Scams will be high and ethics to be less than other districts as you are dealing with the Chinese-Vietnamese. Most are 100% Chinese even though they're 3rd generations or more here. Most food and raw materials come byway of China, even if it's bought from Vietnam; D5 is the dumping ground of China. When there are outbreaks of animal diseases in China, don't eat in D5 as they will probably ship the dead quarantine animals there. Sorry for the off topic but I have zero respect for the Chinese for these reasons. Use Google translation to pick out the apts and ask your VN friends or students to help you. You have students, be nice to them and ask them to help you by bringing in a muaban newspaper (print) or web surfing. Keep in mind $500 or more are in the range of luxury apts or mcMansions. I recommend looking in the areas near D10 and away from D8, which is a crime depot.

[mark_in_saigon]

[mark_in_saigon]

[bludevil96]

[mark_in_saigon]

Sorry, I think you are talking about something else. Yes, we can be successful in our dealings DESPITE the obstacles. This link I posted is just the first one that popped up, if you study this issue from a professional perspective, you will have seen this issue dealt with many times, and the bottom line is always the same. Generally speaking, it is a very opaque market. Again, it can still be navigated, especially if you have special advantages, which is rather the point of an opaque market, to give rewards to the elite, the connected, the inside players. I do understand what you are saying, but if you are trying to state that it is a transparent market it is going to be interesting to see the facts backing up your statement. I could find many other facts supporting this position, but having played this market internationally all my life, I already know the facts, have laid them out clearly, and if anyone does not believe them, they can just do a search for the terms "real estate transparency Vietnam" and they will get the same results, which is the fact that VN is among the least transparent real estate markets in the world. It is just a fact, sorry.

[mark_in_saigon]

This from a recent story on protesters being slammed by the government.

Earlier in November, police peacefully dispersed a march of about 150 Vietnamese Catholics protesting an alleged grab of church land by authorities.

Small protests are also often staged by aggrieved landowners outside government offices in Hanoi, alleging they have been given inadequate compensation for land taken by the state for development.

This is the kind of government action that is at the heart of the transparency issue. The authorities can really do anything they want to do. If you are part of the ruling elite, you are likely being funneled extra wealth just because of your membership, and you are safe from losing your property. If you are a normal person, your wealth is always at risk for whatever the government comes up with.

This is a very interesting market, let there be no doubt. Amazing to see so many nice properties sitting empty, I think as a store of wealth. The connected have houses with multiple floors, way beyond what they can use. The masses are sharing rooms the size of kitchens, with 6 people sleeping on floor of the in the unairconditioned room.

Very hard to reconcile the price tags on these nice properties with the ability of the average income earner to rent or buy them. The properties listed for rent on CL are not in reach of the average native, the ads are not even in the native language, not a single one of them that I have ever seen. It will be fascinating to see how this all shakes out someday. Will incomes magically rise to meet the prices of these properties, or will the prices of the properties fall to meet the level that the natives can pay? Or will property just be a store of wealth for the connected? Our income disparity is growing dangerously in the west, but it seems much worse here. Fortunately for the elite here, there seems to be nothing the masses can do to change the nature of the system, so the rich seem to have things well under control.

[The Mad Hatter]

I don't expect anything will happen if the landlords don't get tenants on their new property investments. It appears as though it will just go on with more units ad infinitum. The Egyptians built massive pyramids and it went on for thousands of years. We in the west tend to project our prejudices about economics on other societies. For all we know these concrete structures are some massive above water coral reef that will gradually grow and expand from one end of the land to the other. We have no idea what it can mean. Perhaps they are a kind of instinctive human effort to cool the weather by creating hollow spaces that shade and bring cooling presence to the surrounding vicinity.