Job Discussion Forums

[Guy Courchesne]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16387103

I think most would hail the end of the Iraq war and be happy to see everyone home, but the flip side is this kind of story. Reminds me of the first Rambo movie.

[spiral78]

That's truly awful.

Good point about jobs - I hadn't considered what all those returning vets will do with their time and energy.

[johnslat]

And the worst part about PTSD is that many/most vets: 1. don't even know they have it; 2. are in denial about having it; or 3. know they have it, but don't trust the VA to do anything to help because, after all, it was the military that was responsible for their getting screwed up.

And PTSD doesn't just "cure itself." The effects are chronic - and are nearly certain to manifest themselves in some way eventually. Vets with PTSD are never going to be able to "reintegrate into society" and lead "normal lives" unless and until they get some help.

Regards,
John

[steve b]

So what happened after both world wars to the far greater numbers of demobbed servicemen when they returned to civvy street? As far as I know, the vast majority went back to work without needing counselling or going out killing people.

[spiral78]

The economy was far stronger at that time, and there were good jobs to go around.

[steve b]

Ah, sorry, never realised that stopped them from going berserk. There was me thinking just perhaps they should never have been allowed to serve in the first place.

[spiral78]

No, of course it never stopped the few from going postal. Just that, as Guy has pointed out, men who have jobs and prospects are at least slightly less likely to go berserk.

[johnslat]

Dear steve b,

"The Veterans Administration estimates that 20% to 35% of the Nation�s 2.5 million surviving World War II vets suffer from PTSD.

According to the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study, conducted by the National Center for PTSD, PTSD affects about 30 percent of Vietnam War Veterans.

Psychiatrists estimate that one in three U.S. soldiers who served in Iraq or Afghanistan may develop PTSD. (Seal, K. H., Bertenthal, D., Maguen, S., Gima, K., Chu, A., and Marmar, C. R. (2008). �Getting beyond �Don�t ask; don�t tell�: An evaluation of US Veterans Administration post-deployment mental health screening of veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.� American Journal of Public Health, 98, 714�720.) Due to stigma and lack of resources, only about 50% of these veterans are expected to get the treatment they need."

http://veteranschildren.com/leilalevinson/wordpress/faq/

Not all those suffering from PTSD go "berserk" and kill people. Some kill only. themselves, others end up on the streets. And it's not only vets, of course, who can suffer from it.

"Current Iraq War PTSD Statistics:
While less than 10 percent of the general population will develop post-traumatic stress syndrome, one in six soldiers returning from Iraq suffer from it.
Enlisted men are twice as likely than military officers to report PTSD.
American women serving in Iraq tend to suffer from more severe and debilitating forms of PTSD."

http://www.psychiatric-disorders.com/articles/ptsd/causes-and-history/history-of-ptsd.php

"More than 10,000 Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are homeless or in programs aimed at keeping them off the streets, a number that has doubled three times since 2006, according to figures released by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

The rise comes at a time when the total number of homeless veterans has declined from a peak of about 400,000 in 2004 to 135,000 today.

�We�re seeing more and more (Iraq and Afghanistan veterans),� says Richard Thomas, a Volunteers of America case manager at a shelter in Los Angeles. �It�s just a bad time for them to return now and get out of the military.�

The VA blames the rise on a poor economy and the nature of the current wars, where a limited number of troops serve multiple deployments.

The result is a group of homeless veterans where 70 percent have a history of combat exposure with its psychological effects, says Pete Dougherty, a senior policy adviser on homelessness at the VA.

Among all homeless veterans, perhaps 20 percent to 33 percent were in combat, he says."

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/07/usat-homelessness-among-iraq-afghanistan-vets-rises-072511/

So, the "vast majority" you mention may be the lucky ones, ones who never saw combat or weren't traumatically affected by it if they did. Or they may functioning alcoholics/drug addicts.

But this sentence I don't quite understand:

"There was me thinking just perhaps they should never have been allowed to serve in the first place."

Why shouldn't they "never have been allowed to serve in the first place?"

Regards,
John

[Dedicated]

I think the point steve b was making is that during and after the First and Second World Wars, large numbers of soldiers were said to be suffering from "shell shock', "soldier's heart" or "battle fatigue". Take the great poet, Wilfred Owen. The symptoms referred to by these terms would now be called PTSD or "combat stress".

They did not go berserk. They simply returned to their families with no counselling.

Today, surely "going berserk" and killing folk has something to do with gun laws and being able to own an arsenal of weapons.

[johnslat]

Dear Dedicated,

Why - the only way gun laws have changed since WW II is that they've become stricter in most places. There were no waiting periods, no background checks, and, in some states, not even a license needed back then.

The Gun Control Act was passed only in 1968:

"Gun Control Act
The assassination of John F. Kennedy, who was killed by a mail-order gun that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald, inspired this major revision to federal gun laws. The subsequent assasinations of Martin Luther King and presidential candidate Robert Kennedy fueled its quick passage. License requirements were expanded to include more dealers, and more detailed record keeping was expected of them; handgun sales over state lines were restricted; the list of persons dealers could not sell to grew to include those convicted of felonies (with some exceptions), those found mentally incompetent, drug users and more. The act also defined persons who were banned from possessing firearms.

The key element of this bill outlawed mail order sales of rifles and shotguns; Up until this law, mail order consumers only had to sign a statement that they were over 21 years of age for a handgun (18 for rifle or shotgun); it also detailed more persons who were banned from possessing certain guns, including drug users, and further restricted shotgun and rifles sales.


Read more: Federal Gun Control Legislation - Timeline � Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/guntime1.html#1934#ixzz1iRKb9ciy

"Fifteen years ago there were 23 federal firearms licenses issued in Belchertown. Today, there are three. �I would say is a severe drop,� said Rich Kimball, R & R sale of arms, 450 State St., and one of three remaining licensees.

Stricter regulations of federal licensing dating back to 1993, plus the general climate of Massachusetts, with some of the toughest laws for firearms in the country, have made it difficult for gun dealers in the State of Bahia, According to Kimball. The combination, he says, �has caused many dealers to leave the state.�

Since 1994, the number of federal licensing of firearms � FFL � issued in Massachusetts has decreased from 4109 to 531, or by 87 percent. A federally licensed firearms permit is necessary for any business that makes, repairs, sells, imports or engages in the display of firearms or ammunition.

A federal license is also required for companies that make or importing of �destructive devices�, specialized heavy weapons such as bean sprouts firearms or weapons bag, which can be fitted to fire explosives illegally.

The total number of federal licensing of firearms in Franklin, Hampden and Hampshire counties, fell by 76 percent, 446 to 120. Eighty-six of the 120 licenses are licenses of type 1, required for arms dealers. There are 26 Type 7 licenses are issued to dealers, four Type 8 licenses for importers of arms and three Type 6 licenses to manufacturers of ammunition.

There are two type 10 licenses issued to manufacturers of destructive devices or ammunition for destructive devices. Kollmorgen, Northampton company that works for the Department of Defense, holds one, and ZM Weapons, a high performance manufacturer of weapons in Bernardston, holds the other.

Among individual communities across the three counties, the decline in total numbers of federal licensing of firearms is drastic. Springfield used to have 72 total licensees, there are now 10. Three of them are in the hands of gun manufacturer Smith & Wesson, and one by the Springfield Library and Museums Association, who needs to show his collection of weapons."

The term "going postal" was coined for a Vietnam era vet:

Early on the morning of August 20, 1986, a 44-year-old mail carrier named Patrick Sherrill arrived for work in Edmond, Okla., armed with three handguns. The previous day, Sherrill, a shy, solitary Vietnam-era veteran who lived in the house he had shared with his mother until her death eight years before had been warned by his supervisors he could lose his job if he didn�t shape up his work habits. Now, dressed for work in his blue mail-carrier�s uniform, Sherrill walked up to one of those supervisors, Rick Esser, and shot him dead."


And some WW II vets did go berserk:

"Howard Unruh, a World War II vet who in 1949 went berserk and killed 13 people in his hometown of Camden, N.J., as �the father of modern mass murder.�

"On Easter Sunday, April 17, 1949, George A. McIntyre (1923-1949), age 25, a World War II veteran, goes berserk, kills three law-enforcement officers and a taxicab driver and wounds two officers and a bystander during a 40-minute gun battle in Pullman, Washington, before he himself is shot and killed."

And there are more.





Regards,
John

[steve b]

John, Dedicated part-answered for me, however "never allowed in the first place" meant precisely that. Today the psychiatrists are so good at not only diagnosing illnesses but inventing new ones (failing which, changing the names of old ones to something sounding better) that perhaps services potential recruits should be psychobabble tested to weed the unsuitable out or ensure they are assigned jobs behind the line. They never had that luxury in the UK in WW2 and indeed during both world wars as you know, PTSD hadn't been invented and it was known as cowardice, punishable by firing squad.

I confess to wondering what the world has come to when counselling is offered for everything. Now I believe it is de rigeur in some circles in the US to have a good shrink, and I won't say that some people don't benefit from counselling after something terrible happens to them. However, about 5 years ago in the UK my home was burgled. Yes I was angry, yes I was upset, but no I did not need counselling. I did get a letter from the police offering me it though! Madness.

[Sashadroogie]

There is no PTSD in the Motherland. All potentially dangerous military personnel are simply given a job in the police after their tours of duty. Kills two stones with one bird, hic!

There are some angry undesirables who don't make it to the hallowed ranks of the politsiya. So, I always advise posting on Dave's as a way to relieve post traumatic stress. It's totally free, and works so well that some people come back again and again for more and more ... hic!

[johnslat]

Dear steve b,

PTSD has been called by many different names over the years:

"However, it was called by different names as early as the American Civil War, when combat veterans were referred to as suffering from "soldier's heart." In World War I, symptoms that were generally consistent with this syndrome were referred to as "combat fatigue." Soldiers who developed such symptoms in World War II were said to be suffering from "gross stress reaction," and many troops in Vietnam who had symptoms of what is now called PTSD were assessed as having "post-Vietnam syndrome." PTSD has also been called "battle fatigue" and "shell shock."

I'm afraid I still don't understand what you meant by "never have been allowed to serve in the first place." You wrote about "diagnosing illnesses" but that's after the fact. There is no way to determine in advance how someone will be affected by intense trauma, except that, of course, it will have some effect unless the person involved is a sociopath/psychopath.

Being burglarized, while no joke, is not, I'd say comparable to being in a situation where people are trying to kill you almost every day (and are succeeding in killing some of your best friends) and/or where you are killing people and/or seeing them killed close up and personal.

I get the impression that you may believe that PTSD is a "made-up" illness. I can assure you that it is not. I'm reminded of Shakespeare's line:

�He jests at scars that never felt a wound�

Regards,
John

[steve b]

Be reminded of whatever quote you wish to dig out, it doesn't alter the fact that psychiatrists believe they can diagnose latent defects, much as a doctor or opthalmologist might. It also doesn't alter the fact that you know nothing of events in my life and therefore know nothing of any traumatic events I may or may not have endured.

Most of the description examples you offer have not until recently been used by the British - in fact largely it was termed "shell shock" after it transformed from "cowardice" - another example of trick cyclists inventing new names for old "problems" or the PC brigade doing likewise (eg. bi-polar instead of schizophrenic).

I am dreadfully sorry if my English is not man enough to make you grasp my point, but it is the best I can do without wasting hours composing a thesis simply to please others and to reinforce my argument.

[johnslat]

Dear steve b,

It's a little confusing - you seem to scoff at psychiatrists

"Today the psychiatrists are so good at not only diagnosing illnesses but inventing new ones (failing which, changing the names of old ones to something sounding better) that perhaps services potential recruits should be psychobabble tested . . ."


but also to credit them with amazing diagnostic abilities:

" . . . it doesn't alter the fact that psychiatrists believe they can diagnose latent defects, much as a doctor or opthalmologist might."

No, I don't know anything about the events of your life - expect that you clearly have never been in an intensely traumatic situation. And I hope you never are.

Regards,
John