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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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 Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: Alternative to ALT program, what would you have done? |
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Just something to think/talk about. If you could change it, how would you change the ALT industry? From the BoE/MoE POV, that is.
I feel that the way of running things for the ALT industry, is like they copied and pasted from JET. As ALTS are still really filling in the 'culture exchange' part of education first, and teaching a distant 2nd.
Personally, I would get rid of ALTs altogether. In their place, I would have JTEs take English lessons at school. This would do two things, first it would help raise the JTEs' English level. 2nd, it would allow time for JTEs to study. As some of them don't have time to do so.
I find that a lot of what I do as an ALT, is correct the JTEs English. A lot of times they've taught some seriously wrong grammar, which is damaging to the students. If this was fixed, we wouldn't need expensive ALTs running around. Also the students would regain/gain some faith in their JTEs' English ability. As most of them seem to doubt their JTEs.
What would you do?
Hey Dec is kinda slow here  |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative to ALT program, what would you have done? |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
I feel that the way of running things for the ALT industry, is like they copied and pasted from JET. As ALTS are still really filling in the 'culture exchange' part of education first, and teaching a distant 2nd.
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Well, yes: the BOE's still operate under Ministry guidance so the goals there are independent of who supplies the warm monkey body to fill it - JET or non-JET, they still operate within the same context.
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Personally, I would get rid of ALTs altogether. In their place, I would have JTEs take English lessons at school. This would do two things, first it would help raise the JTEs' English level. 2nd, it would allow time for JTEs to study. As some of them don't have time to do so.
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JTL's take lessons from whom? You're confused about what ALT's do and then you say that JTL's should spend time improving themselves in a an area that isn't (according to you) the primary area for ALT's anyway.
You sound confused. 
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I find that a lot of what I do as an ALT, is correct the JTEs English. A lot of times they've taught some seriously wrong grammar, which is damaging to the students. If this was fixed, we wouldn't need expensive ALTs running around.
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ALT's aren't really all that expensive, and certainly not when compared to Japanese teachers. In fact, ALT's are getting cheaper all the time for the simple reason that their pay & conditions haven't increased in the last ~25 years. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative to ALT program, what would you have done? |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
I feel that the way of running things for the ALT industry, is like they copied and pasted from JET. As ALTS are still really filling in the 'culture exchange' part of education first, and teaching a distant 2nd.
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Well, yes: the BOE's still operate under Ministry guidance so the goals there are independent of who supplies the warm monkey body to fill it - JET or non-JET, they still operate within the same context.
| Quote: |
Personally, I would get rid of ALTs altogether. In their place, I would have JTEs take English lessons at school. This would do two things, first it would help raise the JTEs' English level. 2nd, it would allow time for JTEs to study. As some of them don't have time to do so.
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JTL's take lessons from whom? You're confused about what ALT's do and then you say that JTL's should spend time improving themselves in a an area that isn't (according to you) the primary area for ALT's anyway.
You sound confused.
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I find that a lot of what I do as an ALT, is correct the JTEs English. A lot of times they've taught some seriously wrong grammar, which is damaging to the students. If this was fixed, we wouldn't need expensive ALTs running around.
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ALT's aren't really all that expensive, and certainly not when compared to Japanese teachers. In fact, ALT's are getting cheaper all the time for the simple reason that their pay & conditions haven't increased in the last ~25 years. |
That was my point. The JET program is not about teaching, it is about cultural exchange. That is outdated, and no longer something that is necessary
They can take lessons from people who are not ALTs. I don't mean hitting the eikaiwa either. The role of ALTs, shouldn't be a crutch the the JTEs. The JTEs should have a reason to learn English.
I think ALTs are expensive for their results. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Simply increasing the English language proficiency of the JTEs/HRTs alone will not improve the situation. JTEs/HRTs need to know how to teach a second language, or at least a rudimentary training in langauge teaching in order to deliver fun and effective lessons.
So many ALTs are a bother to JTEs/HRTs and provide so little value for money because they have neither general teacher education nor language teacher training. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree. The first step is to decide what they want language education in Japan to be about. Define a goal and work from there. "Fun & effective" is the wrong mindset. If the goal is learning a language then effective is the only measure. Fun might be a pathway there, but it may not be effective in Japan, or at all levels, or whatever.
Spot on for wanting JTLs to actually get some in service training time and teaching theory time though. AFAIK, Aomori is still the only prefecture to *require* their education students to do in-service training as part of their quals. Every other prefecture has it as optional AFAIK and I've seen precious few students take the opportunity. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
Simply increasing the English language proficiency of the JTEs/HRTs alone will not improve the situation. JTEs/HRTs need to know how to teach a second language, or at least a rudimentary training in langauge teaching in order to deliver fun and effective lessons.
So many ALTs are a bother to JTEs/HRTs and provide so little value for money because they have neither general teacher education nor language teacher training. |
I agree, but I think first of all they need to know the lanaguge that they are teaching. But yes, they do need to know how to teach the language too
. I think for the most part, they over explain grammar, and ignore the actual lanague. by that I mean, the kids learn some crazy complicated stuff, while still not understanding the basics. Kids shouldn't be reading about enviromental pollution, when they don't know 'what's your name?'
Oh yeah man, we are pests, and for the most part worthless. If the JTEs knew English, ALTs would be 100% worthless. We are simply a legacy of the JET prgram. Which wasn't ever meant to teach. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
Simply increasing the English language proficiency of the JTEs/HRTs alone will not improve the situation. JTEs/HRTs need to know how to teach a second language, or at least a rudimentary training in langauge teaching in order to deliver fun and effective lessons.
So many ALTs are a bother to JTEs/HRTs and provide so little value for money because they have neither general teacher education nor language teacher training. |
Hear hear!
I think the Original Poster has misdiagnosed the problem. It can be frustrating to see JTEs who aren't as proficient in English as we would hope, but I really don't think that's the bottleneck. The real problem is the continuing reliance on the Grammar-Translation Method.
But then we have to ask why they use that method. That's a whole other subject, and has nothing to do with ALTs. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| "Fun & effective" is the wrong mindset. If the goal is learning a language then effective is the only measure. Fun might be a pathway there, but it may not be effective in Japan, or at all levels, or whatever. |
Fair enough. I wasn't being explicit enough when I wrote that. What I should have said was, the lessons should be effective in terms of delivering comprehensible language, and demonstrate some kind of outcome that is measurable through formal or informal means. In order to get there, the lessons have to be interesting, age-appropriate and challenging in terms of cognitive, not just language, skills. If you ask my kids, they simply say the lesson was "tanoshikatta." |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| The real problem is the continuing reliance on the Grammar-Translation Method. |
Pin-pon!
There is movement within the schools at the elementary level. The institutions I work at follow the Mombusho guideline which says that Gaikokugo lessons should emphasize international cultural awareness through the use of English, not explicitly teaching English. The teachers and admin I work with want me to prepare and teach communicative lessons. About half the HRTs I work with are acutely aware of the need for communicative skills, and they are teaching me some great techniques on how to deliver.
At the same time, elementary school gaikokugo is not a tested subject, so the HRTs and children are relieved of the insane test pressure in Japan. The grammar translation method will prevail as long as universities and the Eiken and various other tests are built around grammar knowledge rather than communicative purpose and interaction.
I'm also hearing from JHS JTEs who are teaching in much more communicative contexts. There is a change happening, but it is incrementally slow. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| The real problem is the continuing reliance on the Grammar-Translation Method. |
No, it isn't. For the goals they have (academic subject and university entrance testing) it's perfectly fine. You're simply assuming that the goal is communicative fluency. It's never been that. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| There is a change happening, but it is incrementally slow. |
I've pretty much given up even trying to point this out to people on here. They simply don't believe it. It doesn't fit into the narrative they want of "JETs/ALTs are unqualified" and "Japan only uses the GT method" and "JTEs can't speak English" etc., etc.
So well done for being willing to say it. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| The teachers and admin I work with want me to prepare and teach communicative lessons. About half the HRTs I work with are acutely aware of the need for communicative skills, and they are teaching me some great techniques on how to deliver. |
That's awesome! I never would have imagined HRTs and ALTs working together like that.
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| The grammar translation method will prevail as long as universities and the Eiken and various other tests are built around grammar knowledge rather than communicative purpose and interaction. |
Let's have exams that find out what you can do, rather than what you don't know.
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| I'm also hearing from JHS JTEs who are teaching in much more communicative contexts. There is a change happening, but it is incrementally slow. |
That's good to hear! But how far can they go without BofE support? I fear for the JTE who tries something "unprecedented". |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Let's have exams that find out what you can do, rather than what you don't know. |
Yes!!!!
Of course, in many contexts outside Japan, tests are constructed to weed out candidates rather than measure achievement. Such is the nature of testing and competition.
About progressive schools and teachers - I observed a demonstration lesson in a public elementary school last week, and I was impressed. A grade 3 lesson (not English) was mostly teacher-fronted (probably the first lesson in a unit), but after the initial presentation and demonstration, the teacher asked the learners to work together to solve a problem, and had volunteers come to the front to explain their findings. She encouraged the learners watching the presentation to give feedback.
Elementary education in Japan is not the dark ages that many outside observers suppose. On the contrary, communication, expression and imagination are all encouraged in the public schools in which I am teaching. I wouldn't hesitate to put my own child in a local elementary school here.
I'm supported by the BoE I work for. Groovy. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| TokyoLiz wrote: |
Simply increasing the English language proficiency of the JTEs/HRTs alone will not improve the situation. JTEs/HRTs need to know how to teach a second language, or at least a rudimentary training in langauge teaching in order to deliver fun and effective lessons.
So many ALTs are a bother to JTEs/HRTs and provide so little value for money because they have neither general teacher education nor language teacher training. |
Hear hear!
I think the Original Poster has misdiagnosed the problem. It can be frustrating to see JTEs who aren't as proficient in English as we would hope, but I really don't think that's the bottleneck. The real problem is the continuing reliance on the Grammar-Translation Method.
But then we have to ask why they use that method. That's a whole other subject, and has nothing to do with ALTs. |
In regards to having ALTs, I think it does matter. As, at this point that is only only thing justifying ALTs. As we are cheat sheets for the JTEs. If they could actually speak/read/write English, they could run class on their own. |
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nightsintodreams
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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The results of a recent test for 2nd grade JH were handed back this week. One girl who happened to live in the Philippines until she was about 9/10 years old and so can speak English quite well asked me,
"Mr-------, why is this wrong?" I looked at the sheet and her answer was "I need to practice the piano now because i have a concert tomorrow", the question was a translation question from Japanese. In japanese the sentence was something like "ashita consaato ga aru kara ima piano wo renshuu shinakute ha narimasen".
I couldnt see a problem with it so i asked her to check with Japanese teacher, he said that the '...nakute ha naranai' form is translated as 'must' or 'have to'. I asked him to give an example of when you 'must' do something but dont 'need to' do it because to be quite honest i dont see a big difference between the two.
He gave me an answer that was "in japanese we used 'hitsuyou' iru' for 'need to' and '...nakutehanaranai' or 'nakutehaikenai' for 'must' of 'have to'.
If i was marking the test I'd most certainly have given her the mark, the phrase 'need to' hasn't even been taught in school yet, so she showed that she has a real understanding of the language, she wasn't just memorising the answer taught to her by her teacher and text books. She's also one of the best speakers of English in the class, but of course there's no speaking test so she doesn't get any credit for that.
Other students who get perfect scores on the test, struggle when i ask them "how are you?". |
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