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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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 Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:02 am Post subject: Am I stuck? |
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I have been living in Vietnam for almost 6 years and recently moved to HCMC for work. After 2 months of pain I quit as the school I was working for as a director because the school was basically ripping us (myself and several other staff) off and not paying what was agreed. Now to make a long story short, I am really struggling to find work and re-evaluating what I am going to do in the future.
I have been teaching in Asia for about 8 years with my last 2 years in a D.O.S position. I love living and working in Asia and have never really considered moving. Now I find I am not even getting replies to my CV for teaching work and I have been politely told I am 'over experienced' and 'cheaper' teachers can be found. This seems to be a growing trend here in Vietnam and I can accept that. However, now I notice almost any positions I am applying for as a DOS/Manager/teacher are getting almost no responses..except for China. Now I have worked in China before and feel it is a good move for me as I could continue building on my management experience but my heart is still in Vietnam/South East Asia.
I have 8 years teaching experience, and 3 years ESL management experience (head teacher/DOS) with several years of syllabus and cirruculium design (for young learners) as well, TESOL but no degree.
I don't really have a question per say, but wanted to get some ideas from the members of this board. All of a sudden I am not getting any hits on my applications, yet for the last 5 years in Hanoi I never even needed a CV just using word of mouth. I understand moving sometimes means starting again from the bottom, but I am really getting down with the lack of responses I am getting for positions I know I am able to do. |
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Christian St.Bacon
Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:17 am Post subject: Best of luck.... |
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Sorry but perhaps to a degree you are stuck by not having a degree...
ChoofCurlyWurly
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haleynicole14
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 178
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: ideas... |
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| You say that before you largely relied on word of mouth to get a job. Have you had someone look over your resume? Maybe an update or new format would help you stand out. Also, perhaps schools look at your years of experience and think expensive. I am not sure what the best thing to do about that would be, but it may just take a bit longer to find a job where they are looking for an experienced professional rather than the cheapest person they can find to do the job. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Am I stuck? |
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| cb400 wrote: |
| I have 8 years teaching experience, and 3 years ESL management experience (head teacher/DOS) with several years of syllabus and cirruculium design (for young learners) as well, TESOL but no degree. All of a sudden I am not getting any hits on my applications, yet for the last 5 years in Hanoi I never even needed a CV just using word of mouth. I understand moving sometimes means starting again from the bottom, but I am really getting down with the lack of responses I am getting for positions I know I am able to do. |
Unfortunately, without a bachelors degree, the opportunities available to you are limited and shrinking. More and more employers and countries (for visa purposes) are requiring foreign workers have at least a BA. Something you need to consider if you hope to stay in the field long-term. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Am I stuck? |
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| cb400 wrote: |
I have 8 years teaching experience, and 3 years ESL management experience (head teacher/DOS) with several years of syllabus and cirruculium design (for young learners) as well, TESOL but no degree.
I don't really have a question per say, but wanted to get some ideas from the members of this board. All of a sudden I am not getting any hits on my applications, yet for the last 5 years in Hanoi I never even needed a CV just using word of mouth. I understand moving sometimes means starting again from the bottom, but I am really getting down with the lack of responses I am getting for positions I know I am able to do. |
Now for the really bad news.
At best, in spite of your experience and efforts, you have about 3 more years then you are pretty much screwed for legal work in SE Asia.
As of 2015 (ASEAN integration) all foreign teachers in all ASEAN countries will need a degree for issuance of a visa to work as a teacher.
Even in China, for legal work with a proper "Z" visa, in most districts, you need a degree as well (it is a national immigration requirement but there have been/are ways employers have gotten around it).
Good news is that you have 3 years to get your degree. There are ample enough legitimate universities out there where you can do it in the classroom, on-line or by some combination of both.
Depending on your country of origin (passport) there may be work in Eastern Europe or Central/South America. If you are from the UK then Europe is also an option even without a degree.
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I'm not casting aspersions on you personally cb400, but I honestly don't think having been a DoS cuts that much ice unless it happens to have been at a particularly reputable language schools such as the BC, IH etc. It certainly doesn't in Indonesia where people are often promoted due to their brown-nosing abilities rather than teaching or managerial aptitiude, and I'd imagine Vietnam is similar.
What's more, as a recruiter, I'd be curious as to why, in eight years, you haven't sought to improve your qualifications by doing, say, a DELTA or Trinity's equivalent. Also, what's your TESOL? Is it a reputable 120-hour course with observed teaching practice or a $99 online weekend certificate? Of course, this is then exacerbated by your lack of degree which restricts legal employment in many countries.
As Nomad Soul says, if you wish to stay in ESL long-term, I'd seriously think about upgrading your qualifications one way or another. In the meantime, give China a go, if only to get some more money together and allow you time to plan your future.
Good luck. |
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Christian St.Bacon
Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: Good luck.... |
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Japan's a possibility - no degree BUT 3 years verifiable experience...unless that will come under the new SE Asia proposal too........
Go for the degree would be best/after '17 gap years' I started university at the age of 35 - had been teaching with an RSA CELTA for the previous seven or eight years...
Having the degree makes no difference to your teaching ability (hated teachers who thought they were great because they had a degree/yet lacked any teaching credentials/ability) but it is a huge weight off your mind, now knowing you can apply for jobs whenever and wherever you wish....
Having said that...... 
Shukran 'unemployed' very much..........
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| As of 2015 (ASEAN integration) all foreign teachers in all ASEAN countries will need a degree for issuance of a visa to work as a teacher. |
But will this be enforced? Indonesia requires ESL teachers to have an English or Education degree yet this is very loosely applied. I know several people who work or have worked in Thailand without a degree even though one is required. How about Vietnam? I may be wrong, but I thought a degree was a pre-requisite there too, yet the OP has spent eight years there without one. Pardon my cynicism, but I just can't see things changing in these countries on the stroke of midnight at the end of 2014. Money talks.
Having said that, I wouldn't want to find myself in the position of working illegally (or just taking the crappy jobs) because of my lack of qualifications so getting a degree really is the way forward. Whether or not it makes a difference to one's teaching abilities is neither here nor there if you're unable to teach legally anywhere without one. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| cb400: I am not getting any hits on my applications... |
Happened to me too. I completed an online CV but since it listed all my experience, the recruiter of the school I hoped to work for, overlooked it. She wasn't looking for a DoS. An email to her colleague and an eventual Skype call landed me the job. A similar circumstance got me my current position--when emails to multiple people went unanswered, a phone call to the head office recruiter landed me the job.
I really doubt if anyone (in Asia) even verifies degrees and TEFL certs. As you yourself should know, what DoS has the time for that? Someone here mentioned Suzhou colleagues with fake degrees and TEFL certs. As long as TEFL remains unregulated, I say design and print your own certs. Besides, unless they're hiring you for advanced writing or to design an ESP course, why invest all that time and money with no guarantee nor income with which you can repay years of student debt?
I feel like redoing the qualifications poll I ran last year to include salaries. How much more on average do those with DELTAs, CELTAs, or Trinity certificates earn? Obviously, where you work will significantly affect the response. I'm also curious about what those courses don't cover or merely gloss over. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| Someone here mentioned Suzhou colleagues with fake degrees and TEFL certs. As long as TEFL remains unregulated, I say design and print your own certs. Besides, unless they're hiring you for advanced writing or to design an ESP course, why invest all that time and money with no guarantee nor income with which you can repay years of student debt? |
Yeah, right...until the day when those "credentials" are unexpectedly scrutenized or checked. In addition to being unethical, why take reckless chances, putting yourself in a situation that could cost you your job---your ability to (legally) earn a living? Besides, a valid college degree and TEFL certificate are investments that increase your chances to compete for and get the better-paying jobs and also not be limited to where those jobs are worldwide. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Yeah, right...until the day when those "credentials" are unexpectedly scrutenized or checked... |
Then it'll be just the degree and not the degree holder that really matters! You can usually tell a lot about a person just by the appearance of the CV-spelling, etc. |
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Christian St.Bacon
Joined: 26 Oct 2011
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: So what you're saying is.......... |
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so a fake degree has no reflection whatsoever on the traits of a fake degree holder.....
shukran 'stranGEEEE' very much
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:12 am Post subject: Re: So what you're saying is.......... |
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| Christian St.Bacon wrote: |
| so a fake degree has no reflection whatsoever on the traits of a fake degree holder..... |
More or less. Just as much as a real degree I'd say. Interviews are conducted, not because certs are mistrusted but that in the end, it's the person, not the paperwork that'll do the job. The classic mistake I made in my 1st year as DoS was to assume someone with an Oxford masters had the smarts for the job. As a college student, I was able to follow instructions a PhD student couldn't. I got well paid for it too as did others with only high school. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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12 years ago you needed a TEFL cert to get (legal) work in Korea.
They had problems with backpackers with 30 day certs from questionable providers and English teachers who couldn't speak, read or write English so they upped the requirements to a degree (as are many other Asian countries) and an anglophone passport.
There was an influx of Ko Sarn Road degrees from UK and US backpackers (no-one said they weren't inventive).
So Korean immigration added the requirement of university sealed transcripts.
People got inventive with Photoshop.
Now Korean immigration require an appostile affixed to the degree (from your home country) with a national police check to match (also with an apostille).
The path has been made. The writing is on the wall. Others will soon follow.
Get on the bus (get your degree) or head for places that still don't require them.
And as an aside it has always made me wonder about people who want to be teachers but don't value education enough to actually get an education.
| Tudor wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As of 2015 (ASEAN integration) all foreign teachers in all ASEAN countries will need a degree for issuance of a visa to work as a teacher. |
But will this be enforced? Indonesia requires ESL teachers to have an English or Education degree yet this is very loosely applied. I know several people who work or have worked in Thailand without a degree even though one is required. How about Vietnam? I may be wrong, but I thought a degree was a pre-requisite there too, yet the OP has spent eight years there without one. Pardon my cynicism, but I just can't see things changing in these countries on the stroke of midnight at the end of 2014. Money talks. |
Will it be enforced is a matter for local government. As countries become more affluent the standards will rise.
As the influx of degree holders continues to climb the options for people like the OP will continue to fall.
He is competing with people who are younger, often digital natives, educated (often as a teacher, many with ESL/EFL endorsements on their teaching credentials) and more and more with post graduate credentials as well.
Even if shady employers find ways to skirt the laws (teaching on a business visa instead of a teachers visa) it will still doom him and others like him to bottom-of-the-barrel, entry level positions with no future.
<edited for spelling>
Last edited by tttompatz on Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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haleynicole14
Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 178
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| tttompatz wrote: |
And as an aside it has always made me wonder about people who want to be teachers but don't value education enough to actually get an education.
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Love this quote. Though I don't like how degrees are so expensive. But I do think that there is value in a higher education, and that it is better to be honest in these types of matters than to be caught later (or just feel guilty / worry about getting caught). |
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