Job Discussion Forums

[boomerexpat]

I'm in Thailand now and trying to figure out where I should go from here and would appreciate your feedback if Vietnam is right one.

Me: 58 (turning 59 in Sept), MBA, TEFL (but no formal EFL teaching exp except in the program), 16rs of training experience on communication issues while marketing exec and management consultant in Silicon Valley.

I've tried to get a job offer in Thailand and have secured two offers in Thailand (both at unis) and one in Indonesia (also a uni) but none will work because - and I didn't think this through before coming over here - you can't take summer vacations. I have a son in high school who supported my doing this so he could live overseas during his vacations which includes the 2 months in the summer. So, I need to get at least 3 weeks off in the summer although don't need all with pay.

I'm too old for language school jobs in Thailand (they might offer more flex on vacations) and most uni jobs. So, my top prospect right now is Mexico City due to their being more open to someone my age and their vac schedule matching the US. most other job locations in Latin America pay too low.

I'm going through the FBI apostille for S. Korea but don't hold out much hope because multiple recruiters have told me the main demand is for under 35 white females. I just have the white part down.

I'm checking out China too but it seems that the only demand for people my age is in the areas young people don't want to live in due to pollution and/or boredom. They are pushing older people farther and farther into the hinterlands.

So, what do you think of me and Vietnam? I don't need a 100% chance of getting a job but don't want to wash out in the second country either.

If Vietnam at all makes sense I'm going to head over in early June for an exploratory trip to check out the city of choice and drop in on some potential work sites. I can head over there to live in August. So:

1. Do you think I would be in demand enough in Vietnam to move there?

2. why type of job would be the best fit? Uni, lang school, or???

3. What city?

4. Any specific schools I should check out if I go there?

5. Would I be able to save at least 500 USD per month? It is exp to fly my kid there 3x per year. I don't have to live upscale but don't want to live like a student either.

6. Any other thoughts?

Thanks

[mark_in_saigon]

I am older than you and have no trouble finding work. Appearance matters a lot, if you look a real 58, a lot of schools will not have interest. If you do not present yourself very well, and I think you said you have no experience, I suspect you would have to work your way into the better jobs, as almost all of us do. Once it is obvious you are way better than most (and most of our guys are not sticking around long enough to get good, assuming they cared enough to try), then you can do okay here. But, my bottom line on all this is that teaching here is a way to live here, and living here is a way to pursue happiness in your life that you could not find in the west. I never recommend people come over with the goal of saving money or supporting some big expense (like a child might be, and the constant trips you mentioned would likely be). If everything works perfectly, you may get money ahead, but it is a much better bet to just hope for paying for a nice life, and if you do better, fine, but if not, it does not alter your goal of enjoying life. I actually think the best profile is being able to live here without working, it is awfully nice to have the freedom to move on when things get too stupid, and things almost always get stupid, it is just a matter of degree, how much you can accept. I would hate to need them more than they need me.

[boomerexpat]

I have the money to move on if things get dumb at a school and I don't view teaching English as a get rich scheme.

That said, I do want to make a little more than I spend on a daily basis which is what I've read that you can do in Vietnam.

It would be great if there is someone out there who can answer my questions or at least these two.

1. whether it is feasible to find good work within the first few months considering my age and the need for at least 3 weeks off in June or July.

2. given my background could I make enough to save around 500 per month towards my son's flights?

Thanks

[mark_in_saigon]

This is not the first time we have seen this question about how much money you can save. Very tough question to answer, even with your comments about sending your son back and forth. Most of our guys have some highly variable expenses, especially entertainment related. One can spend as little or as much as he wants in that regard, most of us do spend some money on this item. Transportation is a real issue. Folks who use taxis really run up that expense. Most guys get a moto, again, you can go the low road or the high road. Housing is the other big one, my guess is most folks are spending from 4 to 6 hundred per month on this, a few guys go cheap or get lucky (or double or triple up) and get out for less, I am sure some guys are spending a lot more. Then the issue of pay is pretty tough to calculate. With no work experience and no experience knowing how to manage this, lots of our guys start off scrambling around from place to place, not getting in as many hours as they want. If I had to make a wild freaking guess, I would say the average (I may be way off) income is somewhere around a $1,200 for our guys, and average expenses are about the same or a bit less. Very hard to judge these, we have young folks who work for almost nothing, not truly volunteers, but not qualified teachers either. Maybe the median would be a more meaningful number, which may be a bit higher. A lot matters on how hard you scramble around for hours. Some folks do fine just working enough to pay some of their expenses and maintain legal status.

The problem is, these numbers do matter too much, what matters is your own case, and most of us go thru a curve where we earn too little and spend too much.

If you are padding your income with work here, it is a great life. I never suggest it to any westerner that really must have the income, as things are so uncertain here, we can get knocked over on our first day and be in major trouble.

[boomerexpat]

thanks for the clarification.

Is the 3 to 4 weeks in the summer a big deal killer in Vietnam or is it doable?

[mark_in_saigon]

I do know if you are quite good, they want you a lot. But, if you are at a lower tier school, they may not even know what good is. Some places have flexibility, I think better places want to get you tied up more rather than less. I have not bounced around enough to be an expert on that question. Being a few years older than you, I would just say that guys our age should really examine their goals. I think it is a mistake to be here primarily for the teaching, or the income. I think the teaching and income enables us to reach our primary goals, which I personally would continue to pursue if I did not teach another day, and sometimes think I am getting pretty close to that day. Sometimes that thought gives me great pleasure.

You may also want to directly correspond with some of our more helpful guys. I think we have so much rudeness sometimes that some folks do not want to even put out an opinion on vanilla versus strawberry yogurt for fear of having our honest opinions slammed. I recently had one where some guy said a restaurant I recommended as a western all you can eat fix was "the worst restaurant in HCMC", if you can imagine that. Not sure why we seem to attract this type, but it does hold back the honest commentary that gets posted.

[sigmoid]

If you've got an MBA from the States, then you should be able to possibly get something in Thailand in some kind of international business degree program at a uni. I would keep working on that avenue while researching Viet Nam.

You say you got two offers. I wonder if you put in very many applications. Anyway, the term has already started there, right?

In terms of VN:

a) There was a time when the cost of living was low, work was plentiful and pay rates were being pushed upward. Visas were for the asking, work permits and taxes were unheard of, traffic was tolerable, there was no helmet law. Pham Ngu Lao was filled with real bars. Teachers worked hard and played hard and the smart ones were putting money away. That window was about 6 - 10 years ago.

b) There is a lot more to VN than just "how much can I save". Have you read a few of the other threads on this board?

This one went on for about 7 years:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=13093&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Anyway, there's also traffic, lack of hygiene, visas/work permits, inflation, economic slowdown, blackouts/powercuts, crime, air and noise pollution, overcrowding, overcharging, internet filtering, etc.

[LettersAthruZ]

[ExpatLuke]

[sigmoid]

Yes, you're absolutely right. There are a few positive things in VN. I've always admired the VNese people for being able to live in such a challenging and inconvenient environment, for example.

Anyway, it's easy to make a long list of negatives to support the "doom and gloom" view of VN, but it is really quite rare to see even a short list of positives from the "sunshine" crew.

So, let's list all of the good things about living and teaching in VN. You start.

[The Mad Hatter]

Sunshine crew?

You have problems, you like to air them, so be it.

I live in Vietnam because I like it here.

I'm not incarcerated here.

I like CSI Miami.......... does it bother you?

I'm so sorry the 'sunshine crew' offend you, maybe it's time to look in the mirror.

[ExpatLuke]

1 - Good food
2 - Friendly people
3 - Westernized options
4 - Low cost of living
5 - Beautiful travel destinations
6 - Higher average pay-rate than many SE Asian countries (Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, Loas, Cambodia)
7 - Reliable internet (mostly)
8 - Cheap travel within country
9 - Centralized location for visiting other parts of SE Asia.
10 - Beautiful weather (most of the time)

I'm not sure if you were serious about listing some positives, but those 10 readily came to mind. I'm sure many others could add to the list. Vietnam is a blast.

[8balldeluxe]

It is OK for 58, one of the coolest guys I met was 65, and students really liked him.A lot of older people teach here. You will have to be on top of things because health is right up to the tolerance limits here because of climate, and the tropical diseases and things like bad water all around. Do not drink like a tourist and make sure you eat healthy food. It will not be easy, you might not profit or save much, but you will be able to teach and chill out for a while. I'd say give yourself a target return date and see what happens.