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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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 Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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Hello everyone,
A recent thread has got me thinking (Uni job or training centre - for developing as a teacher), I've come to the conclusion that next year will probably be my last in China.
My reasoning is as follows:
I'd like to travel to other countries sometime in the future, especially Europe. From what I've read Chinese university experience counts for very little (if anything at all) outside China. Secondly, as the other thread highlighted, Chinese universities rarely help with professional development (at least where I am), I'd like to think of myself as a professional, a newby, but a professional none the less. I invested in a CELTA course and hours of volunteer work before coming to China.
On the other hand, I'm having a great time in China. I love teaching, the hours are great, the students are great and the job is great. Tell me where else in the world I could find works with perks like this (low hours, housing, utilities, paid holidays etc.). What worries me is the lack of prospects.
So I have a few questions:
1) Is there opportunity for progression within China? If so, could you explain them?
2) Do other teachers worry about or plan for the future? What your 'Post-China' job will be?
3) Am I being too critical/negative? As I said, I'm happy here, and that counts for a lot with me.
Thanks for any advice/comments. |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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| Shroob wrote: |
Tell me where else in the world I could find works with perks like this (low hours, housing, utilities, paid holidays etc.). What worries me is the lack of prospects.
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And with that comes low pay.  |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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| Shroob wrote: |
So I have a few questions:
1) Is there opportunity for progression within China? If so, could you explain them?
2) Do other teachers worry about or plan for the future? What your 'Post-China' job will be?
3) Am I being too critical/negative? As I said, I'm happy here, and that counts for a lot with me.
Thanks for any advice/comments. |
I think the experience at unis here can be useful in other countries if you have the right qualifications and know how to sell yourself. Many people here just gloat about how good they have it here. They like to emphasis the fact they have a lot of free time. But what do they do with that free time? If they are using it to improve themselves or moving forward, such as studying Chinese, studying an online degree etc then many doors inside and outside of China will open.
If they are wasting that time, then there is only one phrase they need to know if and when they leave China: "do you want fries with that" |
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bnej
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I had this very same dilemma last year. I came to the conclusion that solely teaching ESL in China regardless of where you work is not a permanent career choice. You have to do something else in addition to teaching, or get into other forms of teaching (subject, international school, in house corporate trainer, etc.). The only real way to do this additional thing is to get away from teaching in public institutions and make something happen for you in private language schools.
Most expats just don't have the linguistic, social and cultural savvy to make a difference or a career for themselves in the public sphere. If an expat was to really make a go of it in a public school, they'd have to be able to improve a students chances of getting into the next level of formal education. To do that, they've have to change the focus of their teaching completely from a more oral oriented lesson to something that helps their students score higher on tests. Only if a teacher is able to make marked improvements in their students scores, or have the connections to get their students admitted to a good university can that expat start to pull the kinds of "grey income" that people on this board seem so insanely jealous of.
Public aside, there are three ways to make a career for yourself in education - take on a managerial position at a private language school, or start your own school. The third way is to use the experience of managing a language school to switch into other industries, or get further education in China. I decided to do it the third way. I took over part of a language school, and used that experience to get into a good business school. I expect to make the switch into either management consulting or strategy & consulting after school.
That's my experience with question one.
Question 2 - This really depends on the person. Some people are perfectly content doing what you're doing for as long as they can, others have a need to achieve some sort of other goal.
Question 3 - Again, depends on the person. If you really want to get your career going in China, you either have to start a language school (and know what you're doing), or get out of education and into another industry. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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| therock wrote: |
| I think the experience at unis here can be useful in other countries if you have the right qualifications and know how to sell yourself. |
The bold is mine, and this is the key. Thinking your experience anywhere stands on its own is like thinking having a BA in business studies means you are ready to step into a business role. It doesn't mean you are not, but the BA itself is simply a piece of paper until you open your mouth.
Having said that, if your ultimate career is in teaching and you don't make the right choices here, then I can see how that would be a problem if you are looking to rejoin the world of western education.
Can you progress here? Sure, but you need to be in the right place and hungry.
[I really don't like to talk about myself in the way I am about to, as I feel like a bit of an arse doing it on the internet, but I think it is relevant] I work at a 2+2 within the biggest university in Wuhan, which is like a combination of the best and worst elements of private language schools and public universities (I really like where I work, BTW, I mean in structure). When I arrived (was doing a PhD abroad in an unrelated subject, not much teaching experience, none in ESL) there was little structure to the school. They had a good head teacher, who had some general materials but was also busy on the side and developing his own career in a different way (which I think was fair enough, as he was more than meeting his remit in terms of what seemed to be asked). So I got a lot of 'moral support' but was often thrown in front of the class with a general idea of what to teach, but little to no structure.
The first semester I spent getting my head around the teaching, but in the second semester the school itself launched three more courses and wanted the teachers to 'collaborate in developing them'. The head teacher was frustrated with the system and was happy let me take over doing this, and when he left I took over his role. The next year I fully drafted all the courses myself and have spent the last two years getting feedback, encouraging and guiding collaboration and continuing to develop materials and write new courses. Have also picked up extra (usually paid) work within the university doing teacher interviews (both foreign and Chinese), student placement interviews and trying to improve the adminstrative and professional support for teachers here. [uggh, I swear I am not trying to look like I have it all figured out]
The point is that there was a gap in what was happening, and I took the opportunity to fill it, work hard (and probably harder than necessary for less than deserved) and now have a narrative of both progression and experience when I move on (and it will be unlikely to be another teaching job but I have no fear it is not relevant). This is to some degree the right place at the right time of course, but it is also about being proactive.
Black holes and voids exist in every country in terms of work places, as do opportunites to show yourself to be a driven, hungry person who wants to both better themselves as well as the place they are working. Employers want to sniff out people with a passion that is not put on or full of clich�s*
*yeah, I get the irony of ending this particular post suggesting one should not engage in clich�s |
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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Thank you so much for your advice and insight everyone, really useful.
From what I gather, there are opportunities to move beyond the average 'ESL Teacher', but you have to be business savvy.
@the rock: They pay may be low, but when you work it out per hour, it's comparable with a wage in the U.K., it's more than comparable when you take into account private classes.
I'm also one of the person that loves their free time, only I try to fit in some private classes. As I'll be here another year, I've already started to research a masters degree and what preparation I can be doing before starting the course.
@bnej: I've always thought that owning a business in China for a foreigner was almost impossible to do. May I ask what experience/background you had before you decided to invest?
@dean_a_jones: Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with what a '2+2' institution is, could you explain it to me?
Similar question as well Dean, could you tell me a bit more about your background and how you came to be headteacher, I can't imagine that happening here...
Thanks again everyone. |
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bnej
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 57
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I don't own a business, I manage a part of someone else's language school.
Sorry, background; I came to China right after I graduated from university, started teaching ESL, then moved into the management position. Guess no real professional background prior to.
Last edited by bnej on Thu May 31, 2012 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scholar
Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| When you think about it, the money in China is really not bad at all. Let's say you make 5,000 RMB per month. Compare that to your Chinese co-workers. The trained teachers are most likely around 2,000 per month. The administrative workers, most likely 1,500 or less. Plus, you get an apartment. The Chinese often treat foreigners better than themselves. |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| scholar wrote: |
| When you think about it, the money in China is really not bad at all. Let's say you make 5,000 RMB per month. Compare that to your Chinese co-workers. The trained teachers are most likely around 2,000 per month. The administrative workers, most likely 1,500 or less. Plus, you get an apartment. The Chinese often treat foreigners better than themselves. |
I have dated Chinese teachers, and they have told me about the salary and benefits available at public schools.
Many Chinese teachers willingly pay a years salary to buy jobs in public schools because of the grey money and benefits that they can receive.
We get to live in an apartment at the school.
They get subsidized apartments that they will own and can live in or rent out.
We might get a little money for the Chinese New Year. They get bonuses that might equal or exceed a year of their salary.
We do not have a Chinese pension. They have a pension and typically much better insurance plans.
We never receive hongbao. They can receive hongbao from a hundred or more students.
We do not have any of the benefits such as travel discounts, grey money, etc.
I am here working for a salary that I have accepted , but a person would have to be clueless to believe that any Chinese organization would allow us to earn more than they allow themselves the potential to earn.
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| scholar wrote: |
| When you think about it, the money in China is really not bad at all. Let's say you make 5,000 RMB per month. Compare that to your Chinese co-workers. The trained teachers are most likely around 2,000 per month. The administrative workers, most likely 1,500 or less. Plus, you get an apartment. The Chinese often treat foreigners better than themselves. |
How old are those remuneration figures for the Chinese teachers? At my school, most of the teachers drive automobiles and/or own a home. My school is NOT in a major metropolitan area, and my school is not at all distinguished. |
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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| scholar wrote: |
| When you think about it, the money in China is really not bad at all. Let's say you make 5,000 RMB per month. Compare that to your Chinese co-workers. The trained teachers are most likely around 2,000 per month. The administrative workers, most likely 1,500 or less. Plus, you get an apartment. The Chinese often treat foreigners better than themselves. |
I have to agree with the other posts, you're ignoring the benefits being a Chinese teacher has. I know no teacher who makes as low as 2,000 here, and like I said, that's just their salary on paper. I get an apartment true, in the 'Teachers' Block', they don't call it that for no reason. Most of the teachers here get a free apartment, those who don't live on campus live in private accommodation at their own choice.
Saying that, I do teach privately and make more than my salary at the university. It's just when people say how hard/poor the Chinese have it compared to foreign teachers I have trouble swallowing.
@bnej: Sounds like you found a good position where you are then. May I ask how old you are? How long did you work in ESL for (from your first post am I right in thinking 1 year)? |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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| Shroob wrote: |
2) Do other teachers worry about or plan for the future? What your 'Post-China' job will be?
3) Am I being too critical/negative? As I said, I'm happy here, and that counts for a lot with me.
Thanks for any advice/comments. |
Ill just give you my take on these two questions as they relate to me.
I try not to worry too much 'post-China', but a lot of my time in the last 6 years have been 'post-China' TBH. I first came here late 2006, and have spent roughly half the time since then in China, the other half back in the UK. Post-China for me has been picking up EFL work back in the UK, picking up hours here and there as an exam invigilator in local schools, and teaching English online with a Japanese company. I am currently earning less now than I have in almost all my working life! But the reason I dont worry is ....
I love my job and work!
To some degree, China has been the kiss of death to my 'career' aspirations, of course I cant just blame China. A lot of it is my own fault, but the years since 2006 have probably, actually definitely, been the best years of my life. Which brings me to your question 3. There is a lot to be said for enjoying your life and job. I enjoy mine a lot, and that counts for a lot to me.
Yes, there are things I probably cant ever do with my current lifestyle: get married, own a house/car etc. But, I dont want to do these things anyway. Maybe Im a fool (wouldnt be the first time someone has said that), but my life is so damn peachy, I dont really want to change it.
My first room mate in China is back working in the UK now with his Chinese wife and their baby, struggling to climb the corporate ladder in an insurance company. I often get emails asking me to spill all the beans on my adventures in China. Im happy for him and his wife, but that isnt the life I want. Maybe Ill regret it later (Im 43 now BTW), but I think Ill have bigger regrets if I dont continue doing what I love.
My only goals are to keep teaching EFL (Did consider doing a PGCE but decided against it...I dont want to teach native speakers in a state school). Keep learning Chinese (just for fun), and keep learning more about EFL as an industry etc.
Thats enough for me  |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Shroob wrote: |
@dean_a_jones: Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with what a '2+2' institution is, could you explain it to me?
Similar question as well Dean, could you tell me a bit more about your background and how you came to be headteacher, I can't imagine that happening here... |
2+2 meaning the students at my school study here for two years and then finish their degrees abroad (in the UK, Ireland, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and France). We do also have 1+3 students (one year here) and 1+1 students who are doing MA level study. So what it functions as is almost a private institution connected to the Chinese University, making partnerships with western universities to act as a feeder for international students who they assist in developing and have contact with while they study here initially. In year one they focus primarily on English study, in year two they focus on their academic discipline (usually something like economics, finanace, accounting, maths etc.).
My background has little to do with teaching. I have a BA in English literature and an MA in human rights and international law. Before I came to China I was working with an organsation that formed working partnerships between British retailers (Tesco, ASDA, M&S, Next, Gap etc.), NGOs (like Save the Children, Oxfam etc.) and trade unions (i.e the TUC and the ITGLWF) to explore and improve labour rights conditions in the supply chains of the retailers (focused on developing countries like China, India and in places like Africa and South America). We did do significant amounts of (mainly) corporate training, which I was involved with, so I suppose that in some way bolstered my 'teaching' credentials.
In terms of the head teacher role, when I arrived at my school the programme itself was only a few years old (maybe five). We only had one English programme that was actually sending students abroad (to New Zealand) and there were not really planned courses, so there has been rapid expansion and lots of holes to plug. As I said in my earlier post the head teacher at the time wanted to move on so I stepped into the gap (at first working alongside him pro bono almost as an assistant) which meant once he stepped away I got the nod. It was pretty much a case of seeing gaps where I could work, being the most organised and willling, and coordinating other teachers (which frankly is what I do naturally anyway) thus proving my value. It was, as I said, what you might call being in the right place at the right time, as things just happened to open up for me after finding my feet in the first year. Again, my willingness to take on a variety of roles also means I get a variety of additional responsiblities as each year passes. Some of these I enjoy, some I don't, but my main aim is to take on things that can provide me with a narrative of progression for when I leave and look for other work (probably in the field I was in before I left the UK, unlikely to be teaching).
Hope that helps. |
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therock
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 1266
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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| Denim-Maniac wrote: |
Yes, there are things I probably cant ever do with my current lifestyle: get married, own a house/car etc. But, I dont want to do these things anyway. Maybe Im a fool (wouldnt be the first time someone has said that), but my life is so damn peachy, I dont really want to change it.
My first room mate in China is back working in the UK now with his Chinese wife and their baby, struggling to climb the corporate ladder in an insurance company. I often get emails asking me to spill all the beans on my adventures in China. Im happy for him and his wife, but that isnt the life I want. Maybe Ill regret it later (Im 43 now BTW), but I think Ill have bigger regrets if I dont continue doing what I love.
My only goals are to keep teaching EFL (Did consider doing a PGCE but decided against it...I dont want to teach native speakers in a state school). Keep learning Chinese (just for fun), and keep learning more about EFL as an industry etc.
Thats enough for me |
Hmmm, so where do you stay / live when you go back home? With your parents?
No offence, but you are 43 and still living with your parents. Maybe your parents are fine with that, and if you are fine with that, then all is good. But most of us couldn't or more to the point wouldn't want to contemplate a scenario of being 43 living with mum and dad for 6 months of the year and the other 6 months p.ssing around in China.
That's why it's essential to have some kind of plan while in China. Working at Wang's Kids Castle earning 6000 - 9000 or some cushy 16 hour a week uni job earning 4000 - 5000 is going to get you nowhere, no marketable skills, no savings, nothing!! The people who succeed or are gaining something from being here are the ones who teach other subjects besides English, teach at international schools, own their own business or school, studying something like an online masters or teaching English and making enough to be able to save at least 10k a month. |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Exit strategy - Life after China |
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| therock wrote: |
No offence, but you are 43 and still living with your parents.
That's why it's essential to have some kind of plan while in China. Working at Wang's Kids Castle earning 6000 - 9000 or some cushy 16 hour a week uni job earning 4000 - 5000 is going to get you nowhere, no marketable skills, no savings, nothing!! The people who succeed or are gaining something from being here are the ones who teach other subjects besides English, teach at international schools, own their own business or school, studying something like an online masters or teaching English and making enough to be able to save at least 10k a month. |
No offence taken therock - But yeah, you are correct. I live with my family when Im back home and Im very happy and comfortable with it. I do agree though, and in hindsight I would look like a plonker if I recommend my choices as suitable for everyone. They are good for me, but maybe not everyone.
There is some truth in the later part of your post about having some kind of plan ... if thats what you want of course. If China and TEFL is just an adventure or a stepping stone to something else, (professionally or personally) then a plan probably is essential. It all depends on what you want from life of course.
Although I probably sound like a hippy/bum type character, I am quite serious about my job. I am enrolled on the first module of the distance DELTA for later this year which Ill complete when Im home, but not because I want to be a DoS in a language school. The idea of managing a bunch of young newbies doesnt hold much appeal, Im just doing it for me really, and Ill probably come back to exactly the same job I have now because I like it.
So a footnote for my earlier post should be my advice and observations are not suitable for all, but should just serve as a reminder that there is always a different path to follow |
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