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ESL.Professor.Roger
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Posts: 68
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 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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I have been getting conflicting opinions on the advisability of a conscious show of xin-yan ( being savvy or having a keen mind, not in the narrow-minded sense) during negotiation. It is indeed a fine line to draw between establishing one is not an easy mark and coming off as too demanding, but it has been my experience with the Chinese as a people that without a show of xin-yan, a stranger or non-relative is seen as fair game in terms of being taken advantage of.
I'd be interested in seeing others' opinions from the trenches on this... |
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Brian Hugh
Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 140
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| The best way of saving face in this heavily poluted world is to where a mask and sun glasses. Cowboy hats and umbrellas will also protect your facial skin. |
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Brian Hugh
Joined: 07 Jan 2012
Posts: 140
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry I am a bery poor teacher I meant wear |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Hugh wrote: |
| The best way of saving face in this heavily poluted world is to where a mask and sun glasses. Cowboy hats and umbrellas will also protect your facial skin. |
Keep in mind that when driving an automobile only one side of your face is exposed to the sun. I recommend a year of driving in North America to be immediately followed by a year of driving in England. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:25 am Post subject: Re: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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| ESL.Professor.Roger wrote: |
I have been getting conflicting opinions on the advisability of a conscious show of xin-yan ( being savvy or having a keen mind, not in the narrow-minded sense) during negotiation. It is indeed a fine line to draw between establishing one is not an easy mark and coming off as too demanding, but it has been my experience with the Chinese as a people that without a show of xin-yan, a stranger or non-relative is seen as fair game in terms of being taken advantage of.
I'd be interested in seeing others' opinions from the trenches on this... |
Something as simple as short delays can give the impression you're not a pushover. If handed a contract by a potential boss, instead of spending five minutes reading it and signing your life away, insist on taking it home for a day so as to read it more carefully. Even though 90% of what's in all these contracts is the same it pays to at least give the pretense of closer examination, and thus being more savvy. |
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ESL.Professor.Roger
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: Re: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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| 7969 wrote: |
Something as simple as short delays can give the impression you're not a pushover. If handed a contract by a potential boss, instead of spending five minutes reading it and signing your life away, insist on taking it home for a day so as to read it more carefully. Even though 90% of what's in all these contracts is the same it pays to at least give the pretense of closer examination, and thus being more savvy.
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Well, I wasn't talking about showing up with the Pacific Fleet at my back  .
But in a couple of recent cases, I saw and mentioned problems with some items in non-standard contracts (e.g. a flatmate "most likely" required but I, not we, solely responsible for utilities in one instance) and this particular recruiter fussed at me for being "demanding" and stated that those kinds of details are *always* worked out after both signing and arrival -- the implication being that negotiating up front would always be the kiss of death. But since the employer is not obligated beyond the specific language of the contract, the problem with this is (to me, anyway) obvious. |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| The only negotiation required here is to say "no" to the contract and dump this recruiter. |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: |
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In my experience it is a bit foolish to think that you can do a line-by-line rewrite of a contract with a Chinese employer.
It might be possible to negotiate one or two aspects of a contract, but most Chinese employers have a "take it or leave it" attitude.
Even if you are able to get an employer to agree to changes in the contract, you will often find that the employer in the end just ignores any changes in the contract.
For example, you can have the contract changed to an agreement where you should not have any evening classes, but that change is quickly forgotten and you will be told to do evening classes.
Instead of focusing on changing a bad contract, it is probably better to focus on finding a different school with a contract that is closer to what you are seeking. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:47 am Post subject: Re: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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| ESL.Professor.Roger wrote: |
| ....and this particular recruiter... |
please tell me you're not worried about a recruiter's 'face!'
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ESL.Professor.Roger
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: Re: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| ESL.Professor.Roger wrote: |
| ....and this particular recruiter... |
please tell me you're not worried about a recruiter's 'face!'
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No, the ultimate employer's. But one must also, IME, handle recruiters well or you may find they aren't proposing you for positions you might be well suited for out of holding a grudge.
As I said, a fine line... |
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rogerwilco
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:06 am Post subject: Re: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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| ESL.Professor.Roger wrote: |
No, the ultimate employer's. But one must also, IME, handle recruiters well or you may find they aren't proposing you for positions you might be well suited for out of holding a grudge.
As I said, a fine line... |
My experience with recruiters in China is that they have more of a shotgun approach where they will send out your resume to anybody and everybody.
They are only in it for the money, and really do not care where you end up.
The only thing of importance is their commission from the school.
They may tell you anything to appease you, but their allegiance is to whichever school pays their commission. |
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ESL.Professor.Roger
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: Re: xin-yan vs. saving face |
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| rogerwilco wrote: |
My experience with recruiters in China is that they have more of a shotgun approach where they will send out your resume to anybody and everybody.
They are only in it for the money, and really do not care where you end up.
The only thing of importance is their commission from the school.
They may tell you anything to appease you, but their allegiance is to whichever school pays their commission.
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Thank you for a useful post.
My experience with recruiters has not been specifically *Chinese* recruiters so this is good to know. |
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