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kona
Joined: 17 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:29 am Post subject: How to get the ball rolling w/ an MA TESOL and minimal exp. |
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Hi everyone,
Wanted to get some feedback on possible/best countries for employment given my qualifications. I'm working on my MA TESOL and I should have it in hand by July; then, I'll be hitting the pavement. I don't have much experience, just 6 months in Mexico teaching EFL and one year as a non-certified public school teacher (did it through a non-profit). I also got 30k of student loans I need to pay as well.
I was wondering what countries are the best places for me to get the ball rolling with a career in EFL. I've been popping up here and there on different forums and have gleaned some good info off of your guys' posts, let me know if I'm missing anything. Here's what I got so far for the countries I'm considering. Keep in mind that I'd like to make enough money to pay off some student loans and travel a little bit:
SK: You can check my recent post on that forum.
Japan: Super competitive with a high cost of living. Really difficult to get the a person's foot in the door on anything more than an eikaiwa position even with an MA TESOL. ALT direct hire or JET is the best option, although I'd have to wait awhile to do JET.
China: Huge demand from employers, but pay is mostly low. Some joint-ventures have got good deals, and there may be some corporate or test training centers that would make good use of my quals and skills.
Vietnam: Possibly better opportunities than China. RMIT seems to pay considerably well, and other JV uni's seem pretty good too. Little worried about being paid in VND because of its devaluation and the difficulty of trading it in for foreign currency.
Malaysia: Few job opportunities but those that exist sometimes pay well. Little information exists on the subject I've found.
Hong Kong: High cost of living and job opportunities are competitive. Outside the NET scheme, not much exists. Universities probably wouldn't hire me without experience. Things may be slightly different in Macau.
Indonesia: Nat plus schools seem to be the best bet, although I'm confused on visa regulations: don't know if you have to have a BA in English or if an MA TESOL will suffice and if saving money to pay off student loans and travel is possible.
Turkey: Large demand, some shady employers, private universities may hire me but probably not from abroad. A little more of gamble if I just move out there.
Saudi Arabia: Kinda scary. Don't like the idea of a sponsor holding onto my passport. But I should consider all opportunities, are there any reputable employers that would take me up considering my quals and lack of exp?
Mexico: Salaries are pretty low so I don't think I can make this work while I still have student loans. Some university positions pay pretty well but not well enough to pay off student loans and have money for travel. hmm....
Colombia: Salaries seem better than mexico but will not be able to line anything up before hand. may not be able to pay off student loans and travel... again...
Sorry if there are any typos, I wrote this super fast and somebody is waiting on me right now. Any feedback is really appreciated and let me know if I missed out any info on certain countries or if there are other countries I should consider.
Hope you all have long and fortuitous careers in EFL/ESL!! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: Re: How to get the ball rolling w/ an MA TESOL and minimal e |
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| kona wrote: |
Here's what I got so far for the countries I'm considering. Keep in mind that I'd like to make enough money to pay off some student loans and travel a little bit:
Japan: Super competitive with a high cost of living. Really difficult to get the a person's foot in the door on anything more than an eikaiwa position even with an MA TESOL. ALT direct hire or JET is the best option, although I'd have to wait awhile to do JET. |
What would you like to teach? You should simply learn what the requirements are.
An MA and no publications will not get you into a college job in Japan. You might get an ALT job, yes, but do you want that (20-40 kids in a classroom, several schools per week, being the assistant not the solo teacher), or would you rather do eikaiwa for the sake of its small classes and total control you have? Or do you think an international school situation is best? Maybe a private JHS/HS job is better (but not advertised very well).
As for high cost of living, that depends. Live in the countryside, and I'd say no. Even if you live in a large city, how different is it from living in one in your home country? Not much, I'd say. If you would be willing to state specifics about those "high costs", whether here or on the Japan forum, I'm sure you could get some accurate feedback.
Competitive. Yup. But you have more than most newbie applicants to show for it. Find out what the market here is like, apply appropriately, and I don't think you'll have as many roadblocks as people with BA degrees unrelated to teaching and zero experience.
You got the MA TESOL for a reason, I presume. I'd say get going on publishing and joining professional organizations to boost your credentials and to network. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: How to get the ball rolling w/ an MA TESOL and minimal e |
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| kona wrote: |
Wanted to get some feedback on possible/best countries for employment given my qualifications. I'm working on my MA TESOL and I should have it in hand by July; then, I'll be hitting the pavement. I don't have much experience, just 6 months in Mexico teaching EFL and one year as a non-certified public school teacher (did it through a non-profit). I also got 30k of student loans I need to pay as well.
I was wondering what countries are the best places for me to get the ball rolling with a career in EFL. I've been popping up here and there on different forums and have gleaned some good info off of your guys' posts, let me know if I'm missing anything. Here's what I got so far for the countries I'm considering. Keep in mind that I'd like to make enough money to pay off some student loans and travel a little bit:
Saudi Arabia: Kinda scary. Don't like the idea of a sponsor holding onto my passport. But I should consider all opportunities, are there any reputable employers that would take me up considering my quals and lack of exp? |
Life and work in the Kingdom are not without their challenges. But I'm a single female teaching in Jeddah and I'm managing just fine here. BTW, my employer, a university, doesn't hold expats' passports. In fact, the ministry of labour is currently in the process of doing away with the sponsorship system.
Anyway, here's the skinny on entry-level TEFL jobs in KSA:
If you check the job listings, you'll notice there are Saudi employers that accept an MA holder (of a TEFL-related degree) straight out of university and with minimal experience. However, if your masters program doesn't include a practical component, then you'll need to get a CELTA or other face-to-face TEFL cert (120 hours of instruction that includes supervised teaching with real students).
You're better off applying directly to a university than going through a Saudi recruiting company, although, your limited experience and fresh MA would appeal more to recruiters. The major difference is that the uni will process a proper work permit/iqama for you, whereas, the recruiting agency will most likely bring you in country on a business visit visa. This type of visa does not grant you the right to work or reside in the Kingdom---meaning you'd be working illegally and doing visa runs to/from Bahrain every 90 days.
So... My advice is to skip the Mid East and head to Asia for your first paying TEFL job. Once you've built up a few years of solid experience (preferable at the university level), then apply for openings in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, etc. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: Re: How to get the ball rolling w/ an MA TESOL and minimal e |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| So... My advice is to skip the Mid East and head to Asia for your first paying TEFL job. Once you've built up a few years of solid experience (preferable at the university level), then apply for openings in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, etc. |
Just be aware that various countries have their own standards of what "university experience" is, and they may not accept it from some countries as equivalent. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: Re: How to get the ball rolling w/ an MA TESOL and minimal e |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Just be aware that various countries have their own standards of what "university experience" is, and they may not accept it from some countries as equivalent. |
Yes, Glenski's correct. One of the easiest ways to check out what the general standards are for the better jobs in the Mid East (or any region, for that matter) is to look at numerous TEFL job ads in the target country to see what the qualifications and employer's preferences are. For example, experience in curriculum design, teaching writing (versus conversation), SMART Board technology, academic English, teacher training, etc. are very likely to catch an employer's eye. |
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kona
Joined: 17 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Glenski and nomad soul, you two both give great advice about getting positions in Japan and KSA. I'm pretty cognizant of the fact that oral english in asia doesn't really translate to anything meaningful elsewhere; I'm trying to avoid that and start out doing something that is a genuine resume builder.
Glenski, I was under the impression that direct hire ALT isn't too bad and that you don't get stuck running over the place the way you would if you were hired by an ALT dispatch company (which is supposed to be terrible), did I make an erroneous distinction between the two?
Eikaiwa's don't seem half bad as long as you get on with a good one. Do you have any recommendations in this area? Should I go corporate with AEON, etc, or try and line something up with a smaller outfit? If I did do Japan, I'd like to learn at least some Japanese, have time to exercise or do some hiking, and also save some money to do more traveling. Now on top of that I should focus on professional development by trying to get published; would even doing some of these things be possible if I'm working at an eikaiwa or ALT position? Or am I biting off more than can I chew?
Nomad Soul, I wish I hadn't rushed the end of my original post. I've read through the KSA forum pretty extensively and I know there are some good employers who will provide a multi-entry Iqama. But there is still a considerable amount of employers in KSA who operate in a very shady fashion, which is why I'm hesitant to try out KSA. Its good to hear that the government is cracking down on such behavior; for me, I would not come to KSA on business visa, I'd only want to work there in a legitimate way that affords some basic modicum of legal protection and professionalism. Also, I'd only want to work in Jeddah or somewhere close to Bahrain; do you think it might be possible getting a direct hire position to university in either of these areas? I do have some practical experience as a component of the MA program (ironically enough my classroom was almost completely Saudi and Japanese), and also half a year teaching ESL in Mexico prior to the program, and some experience teaching middle school students, so hopefully that will count for something.
I may just give the ME a pass altogether like you said, but I figured it may be worth it to apply directly to some universities in Jeddah and maybe some on the eastern end (close to Bahrain) of the peninsula. I know I cannot get anything worthwhile in the other gulf states given my lack of experience, but I figure there might be something worthwhile in KSA if I approach the situation in the right way.
Again, thank you both for your continuing advice; you've both been really helpful in helping me understand my opportunities and possible career development paths. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kona wrote: |
| Thank you Glenski and nomad soul, you two both give great advice about getting positions in Japan and KSA. I'm pretty cognizant of the fact that oral english in asia doesn't really translate to anything meaningful elsewhere |
You totally misunderstood what I wrote!
| Quote: |
| Glenski, I was under the impression that direct hire ALT isn't too bad and that you don't get stuck running over the place the way you would if you were hired by an ALT dispatch company (which is supposed to be terrible), did I make an erroneous distinction between the two? |
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "running over the place". Did you mean running around a city to multiple schools? If so, direct hires can do that, too. I know several in my area. The difference between direct hire and dispatch is in how the employer treats you as an employee vs. a subcontractor, respectively.
| Quote: |
| Eikaiwa's don't seem half bad as long as you get on with a good one. Do you have any recommendations in this area? Should I go corporate with AEON, etc, or try and line something up with a smaller outfit? |
Your first statement can be said about any employer in any profession. AEON and ECC are not considered to be too bad, and they will hire from abroad, so if you can't come here to interview, think of them. Small places are hit and miss, and you will undoubtedly have to be here physically to interview. That can be costly.
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| If I did do Japan, I'd like to learn at least some Japanese, have time to exercise or do some hiking, and also save some money to do more traveling. |
Easily doable.
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| Now on top of that I should focus on professional development by trying to get published; would even doing some of these things be possible if I'm working at an eikaiwa or ALT position? Or am I biting off more than can I chew? |
IMO, if you are pursuing a career in TEFL, you should be focusing on professional development every day anyway. How well one does that depends on one's ability to prioritize one's time. Doesn't matter if you are an ALT or in an eikaiwa. |
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kona
Joined: 17 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Glenski"]
| kona wrote: |
| Thank you Glenski and nomad soul, you two both give great advice about getting positions in Japan and KSA. I'm pretty cognizant of the fact that oral english in asia doesn't really translate to anything meaningful elsewhere |
You totally misunderstood what I wrote!
[quote]
I thought you and nomad soul were talking about universities being interested in teaching specific subjects of English language (for example, aviation english for those training to pilots) so its good to build up skills in certain areas that may be pertinet to future employers. When I said teaching oral english doesn't really translate elsewhere, I was talking more about getting my feet wet in china teaching at public unis there where all you have to do is talk about anything and nothing (at least thats what appears to be the case from reading the china forum; also, not to say there are no legit JV universities over there either). I know things are different in Japan as far as universities go.
As far as ALTs go, I think you understood what I was getting at. I was under the impression that direct hire ALTs did not have to go run around the city to other schools to make ends meet, while dispatch ones did. I'm also under the impression that direct hires actually get benefits; am I correct with that assumption?
With eikaiwas, I'd probably go with AEON or ECC just so I wouldn't have to pay for the start up costs. I can't afford that right out of college.
I agree with you as far as professional development goes; I should always be looking for ways to improve my skills in the field and become more marketable. I'll try to do that no matter where I end up. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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[quote="kona"][quote="Glenski"]
| kona wrote: |
| I thought you and nomad soul were talking about universities being interested in teaching specific subjects of English language (for example, aviation english for those training to pilots) so its good to build up skills in certain areas that may be pertinet to future employers. |
kona,
What I meant earlier was that if you get uni experience in one country, you cannot expect another country to value that experience equally.
| Quote: |
| When I said teaching oral english doesn't really translate elsewhere, I was talking more about getting my feet wet in china teaching at public unis there where all you have to do is talk about anything and nothing (at least thats what appears to be the case from reading the china forum; also, not to say there are no legit JV universities over there either). I know things are different in Japan as far as universities go. |
What you descibed about China would not only bore me, but it is horrible for any teaching environment. It reminds me of a private lesson teacher I overheard several times, while his 2female students sat agog and totally enraptured, yet learned zero and practiced not one word in the whole hour. Do you really think this gets your feet wet in a real teaching setting? I don't!
| Quote: |
| I'm also under the impression that direct hires actually get benefits; am I correct with that assumption? |
Like what? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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You misunderstood me as well, Kona. What's good for one university/employer isn't always a good fit for other employers in other parts of the world. That's why it's always a smart idea to look at the job ads for your target country because employers will typically state the desired or preferred qualifications they're seeking. For example, the university I presently teach at in Saudi Arabia listed the following on their most recent job ad:
Applicants who possess all or at least two of the following criteria will be given preference:
� CELTA/TESL/TEFL/TESOL/DELTA;
� Overseas teaching experience with Arab students; or
� Experience in curriculum development, assessment, and use of classroom technology.
This is what you should be focusing on. If you're teaching generic English conversation at a Chinese university, then your CV won't stand out to this employer. However, having the experience indicated and one of the other preferences will get you noticed. Do your research and be proactive about what you need in order to get hired for the better-paying jobs in whatever country. |
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kona
Joined: 17 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Glenski"][quote="kona"]
| Glenski wrote: |
| kona wrote: |
| I thought you and nomad soul were talking about universities being interested in teaching specific subjects of English language (for example, aviation english for those training to pilots) so its good to build up skills in certain areas that may be pertinet to future employers. |
kona,
What I meant earlier was that if you get uni experience in one country, you cannot expect another country to value that experience equally.
| Quote: |
| When I said teaching oral english doesn't really translate elsewhere, I was talking more about getting my feet wet in china teaching at public unis there where all you have to do is talk about anything and nothing (at least thats what appears to be the case from reading the china forum; also, not to say there are no legit JV universities over there either). I know things are different in Japan as far as universities go. |
What you descibed about China would not only bore me, but it is horrible for any teaching environment. It reminds me of a private lesson teacher I overheard several times, while his 2female students sat agog and totally enraptured, yet learned zero and practiced not one word in the whole hour. Do you really think this gets your feet wet in a real teaching setting? I don't!
| Quote: |
| I'm also under the impression that direct hires actually get benefits; am I correct with that assumption? |
Like what? |
Sorry for the late post, must have missed the email notification for it. As far as benefits for direct hire ALT, I was thinking that they would make contributions to the health insurance scheme in Japan. I would think that would be better than working for a dispatch where they do not provide medical, but then again maybe some do. Overall, I thought that direct hire ALT is better than dispatch because they provide medical benefits and are more likely to keep you at one school.
As far as the China style oral universities, let me first say that I have never been to China and have no first hand experience. With that said, I do have some friends that spent sometime there and have gleamed a lot of information off of the forums here; it seems a lot of them are like what I mentioned above. Now, is that what I want? No. I am still in the early phases of developing my own pedagogy but as you can tell I don't have much experience and am still figuring things out as I go along. I would like to use as much Task Based Teaching and Communicative Language Teaching models as humanly possible in every classroom environment that I teach in. However, when we teach in foreign countries, we sometimes encounter cultural and structural barriers to implementing certain types of teaching methods, and have to work with developing a new style in places where we might not have student or administrative support. This, I figure, just comes with the territory. However, even if stuck in a university such as that, there are still ways to make productive use of ones time if they are creative and focused enough to do so, such as learning Mandarin (or the language of whatever country you may be in), teaching privates using methods you do believe in, work on publishing an article, etc. You may even ease students in to more communicative teaching methods through some sneaky, subtle means. Anything is possible.
In my case though, I need experience to move up, as I have quals, I lack experience. So I may need to compromise on where I want to go, who I want to teach, and how I go about developing professionally. If I did pick that experience up in China though, are you saying it won't count for much, if anything, in Japan? Is this out of sheer virtue of the fact that it is China, or is this true with all non-Japanese related experiences, or is this true only with some employers?
Please don't take this as me looking for some easy road to career development; I know rewards lie through the more challenging path. But, I am at a point where I'm very flexible about how I "get my feet wet" because I know that competition is stiff and I have to start out somewhere. That's all I'm saying. |
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kona
Joined: 17 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
You misunderstood me as well, Kona. What's good for one university/employer isn't always a good fit for other employers in other parts of the world. That's why it's always a smart idea to look at the job ads for your target country because employers will typically state the desired or preferred qualifications they're seeking. For example, the university I presently teach at in Saudi Arabia listed the following on their most recent job ad:
Applicants who possess all or at least two of the following criteria will be given preference:
� CELTA/TESL/TEFL/TESOL/DELTA;
� Overseas teaching experience with Arab students; or
� Experience in curriculum development, assessment, and use of classroom technology.
This is what you should be focusing on. If you're teaching generic English conversation at a Chinese university, then your CV won't stand out to this employer. However, having the experience indicated and one of the other preferences will get you noticed. Do your research and be proactive about what you need in order to get hired for the better-paying jobs in whatever country. |
That makes sense. In that way, I should try to develop my skills in a way that fits the majority of employers needs in the country that I want to go to (for example, I've heard academic writing is in high demand in the middle east). I appreciate your feedback on this. Yours too Glenski. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kona wrote: |
| As far as benefits for direct hire ALT, I was thinking that they would make contributions to the health insurance scheme in Japan. |
You're probably right on that one.
| Quote: |
| Overall, I thought that direct hire ALT is better than dispatch because they provide medical benefits and are more likely to keep you at one school. |
All of the direct hire ALTs/AETs I know in my area are shuffled to different schools. For example, they show up at my son's school only once a month (younger than the 5th graders who get mandatory schooling).
| Quote: |
| I would like to use as much Task Based Teaching and Communicative Language Teaching models as humanly possible in every classroom environment that I teach in. However, when we teach in foreign countries, we sometimes encounter cultural and structural barriers to implementing certain types of teaching methods, and have to work with developing a new style in places where we might not have student or administrative support. |
That barrier may come from your own employer. Some may have their own way of teaching and not appreciate any changes. This is one reason some are hesitant to hire people with certification.
| Quote: |
| This, I figure, just comes with the territory. However, even if stuck in a university such as that... |
In Japan I have not heard of such a situation. It might be true in some cases, but I haven't heard of any.
| Quote: |
| In my case though, I need experience to move up, as I have quals, I lack experience. So I may need to compromise on where I want to go, who I want to teach, and how I go about developing professionally. If I did pick that experience up in China though, are you saying it won't count for much, if anything, in Japan? Is this out of sheer virtue of the fact that it is China, or is this true with all non-Japanese related experiences, or is this true only with some employers? |
I'm only saying that some Japanese employers are narrow-minded enough to think that unless your experience has been with other Japanese students or with teaching styles in Japan, they might feel you don't have the proper experience to know how to teach Japanese students. Certainly, though, not all (perhaps most) don't think like that. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: How to get the ball rolling w/ an MA TESOL and minimal e |
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| kona wrote: |
| I was wondering what countries are the best places for me to get the ball rolling with a career in EFL. |
Japan
South Korea
Saudi Arabia |
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taylotransient
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: what about me??? |
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Along similar lines...
I have 1 year experience at a polytechnic in the KSA with good references, 6 months with kids in Taiwan, a few months with adults in Montreal, lots of other language-learning related experience, I'm 40 years old, and I'm doing a MA TEFL this fall. Next spring, I'm thinking about a couple to three more contracts abroad before settling back here in Canada.
Interested in teaching college-aged kids, perhaps a couple of years somewhere in Asia... and another somewhere in the middle-east pretty much solely for the money.
Any ideas, comments or suggestions for my best plan of attack, or where I might wanna look into???
Thanks  |
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