Job Discussion Forums

[ShadowCat17]

Hi folks,

I'm making a book of idioms & expressions for my students, and I'm wondering about the most logical way to categorize them.

For example, I see a lot of lists online that have, for example, "body idioms" including "pulling your leg," "get something off your chest," and "have a chip on your shoulder." However, the MEANINGS of these idioms have nothing to do with the body.

In your opinion, should I organize the expressions in my book by their real meaning (so "pulling your leg" would go in the "humor" category) or based on the actual words they use?

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

[cmp45]

Not sure about how one would catagorize the idioms, but certainly would help to offer contextual clues as to when such idioms might be used
example: Context: when some one tells an unbelievable story...a suitable reply: 'you are pulling my leg'.

maybe just organize alphabetically: idioms from A to Z

Pulling my leg, filed under 'P"

[spiral78]

I'm going to come across as a spoiler, but I want to question the focus on teaching idioms to EFL students.

In most Anglophone countries/regions, people don't really use them all that often (with the exception of some business idioms).

It further tends to be older people who actually might use something like 'you're pulling my leg' - and EFL students tend to be younger in general and to hang out with a younger crowd who don't likely use 'traditional' idioms.

Finally, native speakers are usually very happy to explain the meaning to a non-native speaker when needed.

So, why waste valuable class time on them, when there are so many other more useful things to do?

[cmp45]

Maybe the book could be something the students just take home and keep, not necessarily have to be a used as the focus of a lesson. I do agree the idioms should reflect current lingo-situations (may need to research , if over 30?), but nice to include some of the oldies.

Kudos for your efforts. Anyways..a book of idioms, although not the most important aspect of the English language, it does have it's charm. It would be a cool book for anyone, native or non-native. It would make a nice funny gift. Could even turn it into a board game..sell it, make millions!
It would be a unique way for group of 'retired' ESL teachers to spend their time.Meet, brainstorm, come up with some great ideas, target a market and design a game around it. easy as pie...In fact I think I will write abook about it

[DebMer]

I would have loved something like this when I was learning Spanish. A family I lived with in Mexico loved idioms and language in general, and used to teach them to us for fun.

[Dedicated]

I think I have to agree with spiral78 on this.

The students can buy one of the following from Amazon:


Dictionary of idioms and their origins by Flavell

Oxford Dictionary of Idioms

Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms

This would save you an enormous amount of work and save you from re-inventing the wheel. There are also hundreds of on-line resources available about idioms.

[choudoufu]

"as we all know there is no denying the fact that on the other hand every coin has two sides."

that is the standard opening line in a chinese essay.

too much reliance on memorizing idioms, too little time spent communicating.

[Glenski]

Why go to the trouble of making something that has already been published? There are many books on idioms already on the market. I have 2-3 in my office. One is part of a series on business idioms, and each chapter is based on some sort of theme (sports idioms like "hit a home run with the boss"; body parts idioms like "that'll cost an arm and a leg"; etc.).

I have a book of Japanese idioms of a similar nature. One is entirely on body parts. I used to have another one titled something like 101 Common Japanese Idioms.

Unless you have a specific reason to make this, I'd say don't waste your time. Now, if you want to make it a class project for the students to find and make them, go for it. Let the more creative ones make a cover page or separate title page for each chapter, maybe a glossary or index. But let them design the format for each page, maybe, or get clip art or photos to decorate it.

[voltaire]

Real meaning, of course. Don't know where I got it from since I've been teaching ESL since the 19th century (A.D) but the best definition of an idiom I have ever seen is:

An idiom is a phrase whose overall meaning is different from the usual meaning of the individual words.

Brilliant, yes? After I write this for advanced students on the board and insist that they copy it down (I'm a terrible and tiresome pedagog, I know...) I write the word "money" on the board and assure them that they all know that word. Then I cover that word and write "talks". Again they all nod that this is a word they understand. Then I show them the two words together. Sometimes, the innocents don't understand this idiomatic phrase, so I say, "You know when the police stop you on your motorcycle, and they say they don't want to give you a ticket, but they have to, and if you help them, they'll help you...

Done! Idioms explained.

[fluffyhamster]

Wherever possible I'd use words that can actually substitute for the idiomatic portion of the item to organize the book (i.e. categorize idioms by means of substitute words) - for example, as one could say "I'm only joking" rather than "I'm only pulling your leg", one could place the idiom "I'm only pulling your leg" in a 'Joking' category (though there are other substitutes such as "I'm just teasing (you)" - perhaps have 'Synonyms'/'Increase your wordpower' sections or footnotes. 'Joking' would seem the more frequent and useful of the two). 'Humour' seems a bit too vague in comparison, but might be useful as a temporary umbrella header.

This way, there is a clear link forged between the everyday alternative words that can be used to express the same meaning (with the implication that the idiom may not be worth mastering in productive rather than just receptive terms) and how the book is organized. (For indexing, I'd incline to the solution in the various Cambridge ALDs, of listing the whole idioms under every conceivable main word they could be looked up under - "I'm only pulling your leg" > 666 and then a little later "I'm only pulling your leg" > 666. The main part of a book itself is probably best as a simple A-Z of the keywords, though it is hard to assign much actual meaning to either the 'pull' or the 'leg' thus separated; the easiest solution is to take the first keyword as a more or less arbitrary entry point). The "body part" way of thinking is as you say quite incidental and just another (yet less clear) way or organizing things (quasi-metaphorical or euphemistic or whatever else it may be or could be viewed as - 'Doing sthg to sb, in this case "pulling their leg", in order to elicit some kind of reaction'; Joking with sb can be a bit like pulling their leg - that, or pulling teeth. Either way, it can make them "cry", i.e. respond, hopefully somewhat verbally, in some way LOL).

There won't of course always be a simple and straightforward 1-to-1 substitution (e.g. is "have a chip on your shoulder" rudeness, aggression, hostility, antisocial behaviour, what exactly? Could it be classified as a general problem, specifically one of attitude? "He has an attitude problem". And how about "get something off your chest"? Is this another one for an increasingly rag-tag 'Problems' category? And/or is it something that has been preying on your mind? (A sort of ailment of or condition affecting the body in some negative way)). Tricky stuff, but dictionary definitions, thesaruses etc are always worth perusing for ideas. (By the way, I just had a look in the Longman Language Activator (both first and second editions) and "pull sb's leg" is in a 'Make fun of' subentry, along with 'tease', 'poke fun at', 'send up', and certain less "playful" items like 'taunt', mock', and 'sneer'. 'Joking' isn't under 'Make fun of' at all, not that the general substitution idea above doesn't still work regardless i.e. we could just as easily disregard whatever distinctions the LLA was trying, perhaps not quite successfully, to make; compare ?"I'm only making fun of you" - far too literal a substitution wording!).

[Denim-Maniac]

[Isla Guapa]

Aren't phrasal verbs also idioms?

[johnslat]

Dear Isla Guapa,

Good point, I'd say. Phrasals have literal and figurative meanings:

E.G. I picked my suitcase up and left. My taxi picked me up at 8.

It's the figurative meanings that are idiomatic (if you get my drift )

Regards,
John

[Denim-Maniac]

[johnslat]

Dear Demin-Maniac,

You seem to be saying that since ALL idioms are not phrasal verbs, no phrasal can be an idiom.

The Owl disagrees:

"Many verbs in English are followed by an adverb or a preposition (also called a particle), and these two-part verbs, also called phrasal verbs, are different from verbs with helpers. The particle that follows the verb changes the meaning of the phrasal verb in idiomatic ways:"

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/630/01/

As do many other sites:

"HUNTER COLLEGE READING/WRITING CENTER
GRAMMAR AND MECHANICS
Vocabulary and Idiom: Phrasal Verbs


An idiom is an expression peculiar to a language and not
readily understandable from its grammatical construction or from
the meaning of its parts. For example, the American English idiom
"put up with," in a sentence such as "I put up with a lot from
him," means tolerate or endure. Idiom study is an important part
of vocabulary development because much of the living language of
any country is idiomatic.

Often, American English idioms are created by adding various
prepositions to a basic verb, changing the verb's meaning in many
different ways. For example, the verb "to drop" means to let
something fall. But the idiom "drop in" means visit someone
without having received an invitation. And the idiom "drop out"
means to stop doing what one usually does. You will find that many
idioms have more than one meaning. For example, "turn in" means to
give something to someone, as in "I turned in my test paper to the
instructor," and it also means to go to sleep, as in "Because it
was late, I decided to turn in for the night."

Sometimes a difference in syntax or word order of an idiom
will result in different meanings. The meaning of the idiom "turn
on," for example, depends a lot on how it is combined with other
words.

He turned on me. (He betrayed me; he attacked me.)
He turned me on. (He excited me.)

Because idiom usage, like English spelling, is quite
irregular, it can be learned more efficiently by memorization and
frequent practice than by learning rules."

As Google search will turn up (tee-hee - an idiom, not to mention being a homophone for "turnip" ) over a million hits,

Regards,
John