Job Discussion Forums

[NickInAvl]

Hi everyone. I'm looking to move to China to teach this fall/winter, and am hoping for the benefit of your experience as I begin my planning. I'll apologize in advance if my questions aren't as focused as they could be - alas, part of the reason I'm asking is that I'm kind of bewildered by the array of possibilities and different info out there and am looking to put some order to it all, and start seeing what my real options are!

My background is - 34 yr old guy, native speaker of English (US), PhD in philosophy. My ESL teaching experience is somewhat limited - I've tutored ESL once a week for my community's literacy/ESL program since December 2011 and will do this until I leave for China in November. As far as other teaching experience goes, I taught 3 university intro. philosophy courses back in 2004-2006 when I was in grad school. I'm going to do a CELTA in Beijing in November, so hopefully I'll have that in hand with whatever teaching experience I'll gain there as well. I guess I'd be looking for a job in China to start in mid-December or early Jan. I'm hoping to live in a large, preferably very large, city (Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong or maybe Chengdu, but right now Shanghai is top of the list. Who needs clean air?).

So my questions:

1.) What sorts of jobs would be open to me? Language schools, kindergartens, private tutoring centers for kids, tony private schools, high schools, universities? Anything I *shouldn't* be expecting or shooting for right at the start, given my background?

2.) What kind of salary should I be aiming for given my desire to live in one of the larger and therefore (I imagine) more expensive cities? What would you consider "reasonable" for somebody with my background and what sort of life would that afford me? Also - if you could reply in terms of contact hours required that would be helpful.

3.) How much time should I give myself to get a job once over there? I was thinking that I'd finish the CELTA and try to get a job immediately after, as soon as possible, with a view to starting in Dec or Jan. People who I've asked have told me that you can find a job in days or weeks, that it shouldn't be a prolonged thing. Reasonable? Bad idea? Bad time of year? Is there anything to be said for finding a job from home before I get there?

4.) Finally - I was told that the best way to go about job hunting in China was to get a 60 day tourist visa, show up, find job, and then convert it to a work visa with the help of my new employer. Is this sound advice? Has anyone been having trouble doing this lately (I ask because of some of the recent news coming out of Beijing of crackdowns on foreigners)?

If you've read this far you have my sincere thanks! Any help or advice you'd be willing to offer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Miles Smiles]

First, try the SEARCH function and read some posts here on Daves.

Failing that, go to abroadchina.org and see a huge number of positions available all over China. The jobs run the gamut from public to private, kindergarten to university to corporate training. Salaries and terms are listed as well, as well as an opportunity to contact the schools directly. You can also post a resume and have schools contact you. NOTE: This is not an endorsement of that site.

One can go on forever and answer questions ad nauseum, and you still won't get the complete picture. Go do some homework, then ask specific questions. That's really the best way.

[Non Sequitur]

Miles is right BUT DO NOT come on a tourist visa!
It's always been risky and is a favoured ploy of dodgy recruiters and employers.
The recent upsurge in document checking adds a new dimension but the tourist route has for the most part, ended in tears.
With your quals wouldn't an academic exchange be a better option?

[GeminiTiger]

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

Rules are different from place to place. In fact, the rules are nation-wide regulations but they are applied differently depending on the local power barons.

To answer your questions: (based solely on my experiences)


1.) What sorts of jobs would be open to me?

With your education and background, all positions are open to you. But it depends on the colour of your skin. A black guy with a PhD has less chances of securing a job here than a decent-looking white guy who hasn't even finished elementary school. Unless you are looking at International Schools or as a visiting professor then you might be OK.

2.) What kind of salary should I be aiming for given my desire to live in one of the larger and therefore (I imagine) more expensive cities?

Over 12K a month, housing provided.

3.) How much time should I give myself to get a job once over there?

Can't answer this. Depends on the colour of your skin and your looks.

4.) Finally - I was told that the best way to go about job hunting in China was to get a 60 day tourist visa, show up, find job, and then convert it to a work visa with the help of my new employer. Is this sound advice?

This is getting harder to do and not as recommended as years gone by. If you do, it could cost you a far bit more, but on the other side of the coin you can screen the crap jobs from the plum ones.

[NickInAvl]

Thanks - I appreciate your candor. Oddly - RE: [4] the person who told me to come with a tourist visa worked for the CELTA program. I doubt they were being malicious, but they may, it appears, have been operating on assumptions that are no longer good these days, from the replies that you and others have given.

As for [a] - yeah, I've heard this. Technically I'm half white, half Latin. But I look white. Maybe a little Mediterranean. Brown hair, brown/green eyes, 5'11', European features. Everybody in the US thinks I'm either Italian, Greek, Spanish, when they ask at all. So while I'm not exactly an Aryan poster child, I'm perceived as white (here). In your experience, will I be perceived as such by the Chinese? White enough?

Good point about goals determining what kind of job I'm looking for. Basically - I'm not here to travel/see all of China in yr 1. I don't mind working heavier hours or with less vacation than others as long as I have enough to live decently in the city I'm living in and as long as I'm not so burnt out at the end of the week that I can't read/write. Otherwise, I'm pretty open. I plan to stay for several years, at least.

I'll take your advice and read in the forums more. I have been doing this, btw, but so many of the answers seemed dependent on a person's situation that I thought I'd ask for myself specifically. Apologies for any duplication I've caused, and thanks for taking the time to reply, it's sincerely appreciated.

[NickInAvl]

I've done some reading in the forums, and I'll do more. Thanks for the suggested website. I appreciate your taking the time and yes I'll try to make my questions much more specific in subsequent posts. Best wishes.

[NickInAvl]

Thank you - appreciate the warning. It's beginning to look like applying from here and coming with work visa in hand is the way to go. I wonder if a potential employer would sponsor a visa that had an entry date a month before the work start date (so I could come over with a proper visa but still take the CELTA, then start work). I'll have to ask around or, as you rightly suggest, search!

I'm not sure what you mean by academic exchange, but if it's relevant to your point, I haven't been an actual practicing academic for years. My post graduate trajectory has been odd - bartender, then publicist, and now cube dwelling project manager in a big corporation. So I've got the degree but my resume shows a bit of a gap between my last formal academic work and now, it's not like I'm working in a university at the moment or anything. But maybe I've misunderstood you. Thank you again for your time.

[NickInAvl]

Thank you for your kind response. As I said to someone else, I appreciate the time your taking even if some of this is duplicating what was already in some of the forums.

With your education and background, all positions are open to you. But it depends on the colour of your skin. A black guy with a PhD has less chances of securing a job here than a decent-looking white guy who hasn't even finished elementary school. Unless you are looking at International Schools or as a visiting professor then you might be OK.

Well - I'd like your opinion on this, now I'm paranoid. I'm half Latin half white. But as I said to someone else, I look pretty white and am perceived as such by people in the US - 5'11", brown hair, brown eyes, basically look Italian or something. Nobody ever guesses my heritage when they do guess. So while I'm not blond and blue eyed or anything, I guess I look pretty white. Also clean cut, no piercings or tattoos, have all my teeth and know how to smile, and while I'll never be on the cover of GQ, I am probably average to a little better than average looking. So - just your opinion - to a Chinese employer am I a "decent-looking white guy"?

This is getting harder to do and not as recommended as years gone by. If you do, it could cost you a far bit more, but on the other side of the coin you can screen the crap jobs from the plum ones.[/quote]

Thanks again. Yeah - it would be nice to be able to look somebody in the eye and ask them questions to see if they feel on the level, but given some of the visa horror stories I'm reading, I'm leaning heavily to just getting a job from here with a proper visa, using my best judgment as much as I can, and going for it. And as a friend who has taught ESL in Thailand for years suggested, as a first year teacher you're probably apt to make some gaffes and will have a ton to learn. As he put it, better to make these at a job you don't care so much about than at your dream job, which you can get in your second year.

Anyway - thank you so much again. My posts will become more specific. I really appreciate your taking the time to reply. All good wishes.

[GeminiTiger]

it's going to depend a lot on how Latino you look. If your given name is English sounding and you look reasonably white it won't matter. If people in the US consider you white you probably should be considered such in China.

Keep in mind I've worked with plenty of dark Africans some Filipinos and other distinctly non-white people. The problem is these people always get second class citizen treatment regardless of qualifications.

Everything is a shade of grey here. I don't have blond hair so in some Chinese minds I'm not purely white either.

[7969]

[Miles Smiles]

They'd LOVE to have a blonde-haired, blue-eyed American, but there aren't enough to go around. As long as the OP doesn't look like Pancho Villa, he won't have problems.

I've seen a LOT of strange looking FTs. One guy's nose comprised (I swear) 25% of his face. Certainly, that showed up on the photo he sent of himself. Just being a little dark won't count against you. If you're worried about your skin tone, just ask someone who knows how to use a real camera to overexpose your photo by a full stop. Overexposure seems to work wonders on the older FT applicant's appearance too.

[Ariadne]

You have a PhD. Universities love to have PhDs, but they don't always pay very well. They do often offer better choices of classes and fewer hours to compensate. Schools will value your PhD more than experience. The second term will begin around the end of February. Start looking now if you're interested. You really don't need to do the CELTA but it surely won't hurt you to do it.

Universities often offer housing, which makes salary needs more flexible.

Good luck to you.

.