Job Discussion Forums

[boomerexpat]

This question arises out of another topic I posted for feedback on a contract. I found it interesting how many teachers don't care what is in the contract, especially if some teachers vouch for the school. General feeling is that contracts are meaningless in China and rarely enforced.

What camp are you in:
A. You only sign reasonable contracts or

B. Who cares, they are only paper and I can leave the country if need be?

I'm from a very litigious country, the USA, so I tend to have a Pavlovian reaction to weird rules in contracts and by nature am weary of signing them.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In my own case, I got a contract for a uni English teaching position that has onerous penalties - up to 10x salary - for vague breaches including not providing the "highest quality" teaching...provide "timely" feedback, and assess student�s results "fairly".
Fairly - For most students the only fair grade is an "A" or at least a passing no matter what the quality of work.
Timely - 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 second?

No overtime or cap in weekly hours but a lot of requirements for participation in a wide range of activities, although there is a cap of 18 teaching hours.

They aren't willing to budge. They state they have never used the breach penalty clauses so I shouldn't be worried. They state they use a lot of terms like "highest quality" because they want to reinforce with teachers that they expect the best. They didn't address the hour limit (which in some schools becomes a real problem but none of the teachers here seemed to find it to be problematic) or overtime.

Thanks

[basbas]

seems like they do what ever they want most of the time (the schools i mean)


i always find contract clauses like "if the students complain three times about the teacher there is grounds for dismissal"

so it seems like they can just make stuff up if they don't want to keep you...

the best way to protect yourself is to make yourself too vital to their operation in the sense that if you leave the company will lose money (leaving of students for example) difficult to do to say the least but not impossible by any means...

[Mr. English]

If you can't negotiate out the obnoxious provisions, don't work for them.

[boomerexpat]

[Denim-Maniac]

Im a 'pay scant attention', but we have already discussed that in your other thread Boomer

I know we agree to disagree, but my reasoning still stands. The job you have been offered could be a perfect fit, it would be shame to lose it or get passed by over a demand to change something in the contract that may not be, or hasnt been relevant to any current employees. Being too zealous can result in a lot of missed chances, and if people do keep making demands that are refused...I'd be more wary of the employer who does suddenly seem to bend over backwards to accomodate you.

Maybe its just me ... maybe Ive always been lucky!

[boomerexpat]

[Miles Smiles]

One would have to be absolutely nuts NOT to know his contract inside and out. Though some employers will break the contract if it benefits them, your contract is your only protection from an unscrupulous employer. While it may be true that the PSB in some areas look the other way when a contract is broken, and the Bureau of Foreign Experts often turns a blind eye and a deaf ear, my experience has been that both the PSB and the BFE are interested in the proper conduct of the schools, not just the proper conduct of the FT. (Don't even think about the SAFEA, the good folks who draw up most of the contracts. That agency is worthless).

It has also been my experience that those who really don't care about their employers' responsibilities to them (and vice versa) really don't care much about anything except having a roof over their heads and a bit of cash every month. If they get scr*wed over, they have asked for it.

[boomerexpat]

[wangdaning]

[boomerexpat]

[/quote]

Nice way to devalue all people working in this industry.

You may consider yourself on the level of a lawn mower (or lady gaga), but others do not hold themselves in such contempt.

.[/quote]

I don't hold people in the industry in contempt or I wouldn't have entered it. However, I don't think there is any way around the fact that the industry itself doesn't value excellence and there is the rub. The culture of the industry seems to have been formed out of the private schools where owners just want to make a quick buck. The barrier to entry the profession is low and profit margins rule.

You have some very dedicated people working in an industry that often doesn't value their dedication.

Given a choice, from what I've read, seen and heard, between a very dedicated 45 year old who is at the top of the teaching game or a 30 year old hot looking person with a few years experience, schools generally prefer the later. Students aren't much better. Talk to schools in Asia and the demand is for young, attractive teachers under 35.

Not so with doctors, lawyers, math teachers, or CPAs.

Just reality. I come from the marketing world and youth and inexperience are valued there too.

[Lobster]

Well, first off I guess one of the stranger things about TEFL in China is the mix of pros with lots of training and experience who care about their jobs and hacks with minimum quals who are here for a good time and not a long time. One thing about pros is they've been around long enough to know what kind of crap schools are likely to try to pull, and they have the ability to negotiate a contract so the school can't pull any fast ones without breaching the contract. For me, the contract is everything. It gives me my pay rate and pay date, my holidays and sick days, my hours and days per week, the type and age of students I teach, my work locations and travel allowances and so much more. My school doesn't always follow it to the letter, but they really try, and they have to listen to my carping if they get too far off track. I allow them some leeway because all the major issues are taken care of.

A few points...

I feel that the contract offered and the school's willingness to negotiate are are good indicator of what kind of people they are and how they'll treat you.

Even if you don't care much about the contract or take it seriously, the school definitely will; particularly when it works to their advantage.

I agree that one should know their contract inside out and also know China labor law well.

I would never, ever sign a contract that has clauses that are deliberately vague, punitive, one-sided or intolerable even if I was assured they are never enforced. If they're not enforced, take them out.

I completely rewrite any contract offered to me, adding and removing clauses until agreement is reached. If they don't accept contract modifications on principle, I pass on the job.

We've seen people on this board moaning about being taken advantage of and later find out that they agreed to the drubbing in their contract. If you agree to be taken advantage of, that's your fault.

If you don't take your contract seriously, I'm sure you can find a school that will offer something such as : "Party B will work and Party A will pay Party B". Then you can just hope for the best. Personally, if I'm going to get messed around, I want to know exactly and in detail what happened.

RED

[Denim-Maniac]

Maybe it is just me ... I have only taken jobs that I have had personal recommendations from people that I know and trust, or places that I have physically seen/visited and/or know people there. Maybe my view would be different if I was applying for more random positions seen online or via recruiters.

Im also probably / possibly a bit too confident. My skill set and qualifications are quite specific, I know Im good at what I do, and would rarely have any fear about being tucked up by an employer. Id walk and find another one.

My point about contract which was also discussed in another thread is that I feel most/many people working in other jobs rarely even read contracts or company handbooks before accepting jobs. Yet require anonymous approval of forum members before taking entry-level jobs here.

[Miles Smiles]

[Denim-Maniac]

Miles - I am the one with the cavalier and casual attitude to the contract - (the signing and accepting of clauses and items contained therein) The OP is the opposite and quite careful from what I can read!

Those flames need to be flung more in my direction sir

My contribution and exchange with Boomer refers to another thread, I was of the opinion that after speaking to some current or ex-teachers at a school and getting good feedback, well that should be enough (and for me at least) would be enough to trump the contract and any clauses contained therein.

[Ariadne]

As Lobster mentioned, the contract gives the dates, hours, and pay. Those things are pretty important to me. I want to know what is expected of me and what I can expect. Is English Corner required? Will I be paid more if I have to prepare for three different courses? What about overtime?

I want to do a good job. In order to do that I must know what the job entails. I can walk anytime... but I do not ever want to walk out mid contract. The better I know the contract, the less likelihood of problems.

And yes, it does seem pretty dang silly to me when someone signs a contract and then complains when the school enforces it. As an example... if the contract says no outside work without the school's permission, and the school does not give you permission when you ask... well, hey, don't get mad. It says you have to ask, it doesn't say they have to agree.


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