Job Discussion Forums

[Sweaty Ted]

If a person raised in western society openly advocates gender equality, gay rights, the right of women to drive, abolition of the death penalty, abolition of torture, separation of church and state, representative democracy but agrees to bite his tongue for nine months and go to KSA to earn a lot of cash, what is your opinion of that person?

A person who puts money over principles?

A pragmatic individual who is doing what needs to be done?

Who cares? Everyone has compromised his principles at some point for a necessity?

[johnslat]

Dear Sweaty Ted,

Their country, their customs, their laws, their rules. If you feel you're "compromising" your principles by not trying to transform Saudi Arabia during your time there you are, in my opinion, both naive and in for a very hard time there.

Regards,
John

[Sweaty Ted]

I never said I had any intention of changing Saudi society. That's an utter impossibility.

[veiledsentiments]

It really has nothing to do with "western teachers" because all of the expats - whether they are Western or Asian or Other Arab are all there for basically one thing... the money.

None (with any smarts) of these groups are there for altruism or evangelism or the joy of teaching. They are there to do their job and get a paycheck... and save or pay bills or educate the kids or live a better life than they can in their home country.

And I don't think that any of them are bad people... whichever reason is true.

VS

[Sweaty Ted]

Money: the exact reason I am going there. How many people would work in Saudi Arabia if they offered Yemeni wages?

Personal disadvantages: missing my wife and home for nine months + being used to getting things done quickly in the USA and other western nations.

Personal advantages: I don't drink; I am somewhat solitary by nature and am more than happy to be locked in my apartment for an entire weekend reading, surfing the Internet and studying languages. I am also nominally Christian, but non practising, so being unable to worship is not a big deal for me. Also, the food is tailor made for a vegetarian like me: falaffel, pita bread, hummus, rice dishes, etc.

[fledex]

Smarten up guys. There are plenty of non-westerners perfectly capable of doing all the ESL teaching necessary in KSA. India alone could staff the country. The only reason they pay more to bring in some western teachers is to spread Western hegemony. It's always the same old story, just another form of colonialism. Granted, the middle men are just part of the wheel, but the guys who set the govt. policy for KSA know exactly what they're doing. The king has no choice. The king makers want whatever change will bring in the bucks (to them). You don't have any principles to lose or to hold, you're just a small pawn in the game. Do whatever you feel like when you are there, but be careful. If you think they bring you because they want an American accent or something like that, think again.

[veiledsentiments]

[cmp45]

[Gulezar]

[/quote]
Yes people mostly come here for the money, but if you stay long enough you do learn a thing or two about human behavior, cultural norms, and a broader picture of life outside your own comfort zone. In other words you become a citizen of the world in many respects.
[/quote]

Good point. If we could walk away with that much money in our pockets each year back home, why would we go to Saudi? But set aside the money issue, and you start to learn a bit about the micro-system, which is Saudi Arabia. Nobody should go there with any hopes of changing the society. Listen and learn about the background of the issues which you find so unappealing.

The snob appeal of having a native speaker is another factor, for EFL teachers in particular, but that is becoming less and less important. There are so many qualified "native-like" English teachers from the sub-continent and native English speakers from South Africa that the market for "native speakers" may start to dry up. Only qualified teachers need apply!

[Qaaolchoura]

I don't see any ethical issue. You're taking money out of the Saudi economy: a state that's undeservedly rich on account of oil, and you're able to do it on account of the aforementioned "snob appeal." In return you're reinvesting a small fraction of that back into the economy and helping the Saudis not learn English.

If you can tolerate Saudi, more power to you.
I have the same advantages you have (solitary, non-drinker, culturally Christian non-believer) and no wife, so I imagine I might actually like Saudi if I could get a good job. The problem is that I have only a BA, which means that under no circumstances is that likely.

Personally, after looking into Saudi and finding that I can only get a decent job (private accommodation, reputable school that gets a proper iqama, and at least 3k/month) if I get an MA, I've decided that once I have the experience most Gulf countries require I'd rather go to Oman, but that has less to do with Saudi being a country that makes Iran look like a bastion of liberalism than with the fact that Omani unis will hire people with just a BA and TESOL cert.

Regards,
~Q

[hieroglyphs]

[Quote]
If a person raised in western society openly advocates gender equality, gay rights, the right of women to drive, abolition of the death penalty, abolition of torture, separation of church and state, representative democracy but agrees to bite his tongue for nine months and go to KSA to earn a lot of cash, what is your opinion of that person? [Quote]

I'd say that anyone who works in the U.S. has compromised their principles if they do anything to help a country that is the world's biggest arms dealer. The things that you've mentioned (gender inequality, etc.) are things that KSA has chosen to uphold in their own country, and although I don't agree with their choice, it is THEIR country. The principles that the U.S. chooses not to uphold are things that other countries have suffered for. I find your mention of "abolution of torture" to be especially naive.

[veiledsentiments]

[fledex]

No. It has nothing to do with "snob appeal" or wanting "native speakers". If they wanted qualified "native speakers", India is a better choice financially and culturally to bring in teachers. How can there be "snob appeal" when most of the students and administrators hate what the westerns bring in (culturally, most certainly)? Do you actually think they brag about having an American or British teacher? No, they are required to have a certain number of us, and these edicts are coming down from various princes who are told what to do by the companies piping in the money for oil.

[johnslat]

Dear fledex,

How many "native speakers" of English would you say there are in India? My guess would be maybe as few as 250,000

And of course it has a lot to do with "snob appeal", always has, always will.

Regards,
John

[nomad soul]