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wally72
Joined: 08 Jun 2012
Posts: 21
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: contract negotiations |
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| What are some of the items you negotiate on a contract before signing it. What China specific points should people look out for (such as asking for a percentage of your salary to be paid in another currency like USD)? |
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GeminiTiger
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 999
Location: China, 2005--Present
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| IMHO 80% of contracts are OK as is. The key to getting to know what is OK in a contract and what is not OK is by reading at least 10 contracts from 10 different schools, this way you can get a familiarity with the language and what clauses are normal and abnormal. |
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wally72
Joined: 08 Jun 2012
Posts: 21
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:12 am Post subject: Good idea |
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| That's a good idea. I've seen my share of contracts, but I was just thinking this morning of applying to a bunch of schools at once. Keep track of them all and find the best position available... |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:21 am Post subject: Re: contract negotiations |
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| wally72 wrote: |
| (such as asking for a percentage of your salary to be paid in another currency like USD)? |
that's pointless if you are a teacher. A trip to the bank of China solves this non-issue very quickly.
Why waste negotiations on nonsense? |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
wally72 wrote:
(such as asking for a percentage of your salary to be paid in another currency like USD)? |
Some schools do exactly that, but if that is an option it will be offered at the time of negotiations. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: |
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If one works for a public institution and applies for a position out-of-country, he will learn very quickly that negotiation isn't possible. Once he arrives, however, there may be some wiggle room, such as being able to negotiate working for other schools as long as there is no conflict in schedule (in my experience, it is becoming more and more difficult for one to do extra work without the blessing of the FAO in the form of a piece of the action).
Want to live off-campus and want the bread to cover it? Forget it. Not at any public university or college that I know of. The best that you can hope for is to find an apartment off campus with the help of a local and pay for it yourself.
Where you will have a chance to negotiate is if the school presents you with an addendum that it didn't tell you about before you arrived. You can refuse to accept it. I've done that twice.
If one does find himself able to negotiate with a public institution from his home country, he should take a good look at the school, its location, and its reputation. The school may have problems that you won't find out until you arrive. Unless the school is desperate (and you are the only person it can hire)the school won't negotiate with you. However, if the school is willing to negotiate, the first thing that you should renegotiate is salary. Ask for substantially more. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I have never had an employer who was unwilling to negotiate. Sometimes we couldn't reach an agreement and I had to pass, but I have never had anyone tell me outright that the offer was non-negotiable. I have re-written every contract I've signed here and had success getting what I want. The key is knowing what you want and having reasonable expectations. This being China and all, other people probably have had the exact opposite experience.
RED |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
I have never had an employer who was unwilling to negotiate. Sometimes we couldn't reach an agreement and I had to pass, but I have never had anyone tell me outright that the offer was non-negotiable. I have re-written every contract I've signed here and had success getting what I want. The key is knowing what you want and having reasonable expectations. This being China and all, other people probably have had the exact opposite experience.
RED |
And how many of those contracts have been public universities'?
Maybe ONE? |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Want to live off-campus and want the bread to cover it? Forget it. Not at any public university or college that I know of. The best that you can hope for is to find an apartment off campus with the help of a local and pay for it yourself. |
Lobster mentioned negotiation is possible if one has reasonable expectations. This is not one of them. Why would a school that already owns, maintains, and offers free accommodation on campus leave one of those apartments empty and fork over more money so a foreign teacher could live off campus? From their perspective doing so is a bad business decision. If these are the kinds of things you're trying to negotiate it's no surprise you've had bad experiences with universities. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Want to live off-campus and want the bread to cover it? Forget it. Not at any public university or college that I know of. The best that you can hope for is to find an apartment off campus with the help of a local and pay for it yourself. |
Lobster mentioned negotiation is possible if one has reasonable expectations. This is not one of them. Why would a school that already owns, maintains, and offers free accommodation on campus leave one of those apartments empty and fork over more money so a foreign teacher could live off campus? From their perspective doing so is a bad business decision. If these are the kinds of things you're trying to negotiate it's no surprise you've had bad experiences with universities. |
Let's see. What would one want to negotiate?
Can one negotiate number of hours one works per week?
Not in my experience, and when one signs the contract, he doesn't usually know how many hours he'll be assigned. They're usually spread evenly among all FTs. That one's out. Even the FAO doesn't know what the FT will teach.
Which days of the week? See above. One could possibly negotiate schedule and hours worked after the first or second term, but usually at the expense of the other FTs. One would have to give somebody a good back rub in return.
Subjects taught? Sometimes, but that depends upon one's level of education and perceived teaching skills. Again, like class hours, that usually comes at the expense of the other FTs.
Salary? See my original post. If one sees that the place is absolute cr@p, and every other FT leaves after one term, it is possible to negotiate for a raise in salary, but that almost always comes with signing an extended contract. I've seen that happen. Be wary of a school that caves in to an increase in salary before you arrive.
You want free cafeteria food? That can be worked out. The FAO just gets you a meal card.
You want a bottom floor apartment? Solly Cholly, if someone is already occupying the bottom floors, you're SOL until they move out.
You want library privileges? That can be worked out. Maybe. If it's an ID card, the FAO has to arrange for you to have a photo taken, and to send the money to the library troll. It might be too much work for somebody.
Apartment visiting hours changed? Forget it. Once you bring that one up, you're on their radar. Been there, done that. Besides, there's always a morally superior FT in the crowd that will insist upon enforcement of those visitation rules.
What's left? Class content? Many times the administration is amenable to an addition to course content. A complete change? It's possible if the administration knows that its curriculum is worthless.
I don't know what else one would want /need to negotiate at a public institution.
If one has been working for one school for a few years, one might receive concessions, but not at the front end of the relationship.
Again, this is from my experience at public colleges and universities in Jiangsu. There may be different circumstances that are found only in private schools. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Want to live off-campus and want the bread to cover it? Forget it. Not at any public university or college that I know of. The best that you can hope for is to find an apartment off campus with the help of a local and pay for it yourself. |
Lobster mentioned negotiation is possible if one has reasonable expectations. This is not one of them. Why would a school that already owns, maintains, and offers free accommodation on campus leave one of those apartments empty and fork over more money so a foreign teacher could live off campus? From their perspective doing so is a bad business decision. If these are the kinds of things you're trying to negotiate it's no surprise you've had bad experiences with universities. |
Let's see. What would one want to negotiate?
Can one negotiate number of hours one works per week?
Not in my experience, and when one signs the contract, he doesn't usually know how many hours he'll be assigned. They're usually spread evenly among all FTs. That one's out. Even the FAO doesn't know what the FT will teach.
Which days of the week? See above. One could possibly negotiate schedule and hours worked after the first or second term, but usually at the expense of the other FTs. One would have to give somebody a good back rub in return.
Subjects taught? Sometimes, but that depends upon one's level of education and perceived teaching skills. Again, like class hours, that usually comes at the expense of the other FTs.
Salary? See my original post. If one sees that the place is absolute cr@p, and every other FT leaves after one term, it is possible to negotiate for a raise in salary, but that almost always comes with signing an extended contract. I've seen that happen. Be wary of a school that caves in to an increase in salary before you arrive.
You want free cafeteria food? That can be worked out. The FAO just gets you a meal card.
You want a bottom floor apartment? Solly Cholly, if someone is already occupying the bottom floors, you're SOL until they move out.
You want library privileges? That can be worked out. Maybe. If it's an ID card, the FAO has to arrange for you to have a photo taken, and to send the money to the library troll. It might be too much work for somebody.
Apartment visiting hours changed? Forget it. Once you bring that one up, you're on their radar. Been there, done that. Besides, there's always a morally superior FT in the crowd that will insist upon enforcement of those visitation rules.
What's left? Class content? Many times the administration is amenable to an addition to course content. A complete change? It's possible if the administration knows that its curriculum is worthless.
I don't know what else one would want /need to negotiate at a public institution.
If one has been working for one school for a few years, one might receive concessions, but not at the front end of the relationship.
Again, this is from my experience at public colleges and universities in Jiangsu. There may be different circumstances that are found only in private schools. |
| Quote: |
| If these are the kinds of things you're trying to negotiate it's no surprise you've had bad experiences with universities. |
Why the assumptions? |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster made a very point about reasonable expectations. In any job, here or back home there is usually a little wiggle room for some things if they are reasonable. If you have no experience teaching and a non-related teaching degree then demanding 5000 RMB over the salary offered is not being reasonable. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Want to live off-campus and want the bread to cover it? Forget it. Not at any public university or college that I know of. The best that you can hope for is to find an apartment off campus with the help of a local and pay for it yourself. |
Lobster mentioned negotiation is possible if one has reasonable expectations. This is not one of them. Why would a school that already owns, maintains, and offers free accommodation on campus leave one of those apartments empty and fork over more money so a foreign teacher could live off campus? From their perspective doing so is a bad business decision. If these are the kinds of things you're trying to negotiate it's no surprise you've had bad experiences with universities. |
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
Let's see. What would one want to negotiate?
Can one negotiate number of hours one works per week? |
Why would you even want to waste time negotiating this at a university job? You want less work? The hours are already low and are almost standard across the board at 16 hours per week. You could end up working less than 16 (my hours have ranged from 12-16) but you normally won't work more than 16 unless you accept overtime. Getting more work (for more pay) is usually not a problem, at the university or outside.
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| and when one signs the contract, he doesn't usually know how many hours he'll be assigned. They're usually spread evenly among all FTs. That one's out. Even the FAO doesn't know what the FT will teach. |
See above.
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Which days of the week? See above. One could possibly negotiate schedule and hours worked after the first or second term, but usually at the expense of the other FTs. One would have to give somebody a good back rub in return. |
Every FT at a university job I've ever talked to, or read posts by on this forum, can quite easily arrange every Monday or Friday off just by asking, giving that person long weekends every week. I've never failed at this. In my second term at my job I even managed a 2.5 day workweek, Monday morning to Wednesday noon. Partly by luck partly by making my desires known.
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Subjects taught? Sometimes, but that depends upon one's level of education and perceived teaching skills. Again, like class hours, that usually comes at the expense of the other FTs. |
Unless you've got some special qualifications most people know going in what they're going to teach. 98% of the time it's Oral English. You could get a writing class or one of those culture classes to teach. Most people don't want these because they involve extra work but if you do get it and don't want it then you use that to try and get something else out of the school. I've had the writing class for going on seven years now and since I'm the only one here who will do it, I've used that to my advantage many times over the years.
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| You want a bottom floor apartment? Solly Cholly, if someone is already occupying the bottom floors, you're SOL until they move out. |
Supply and demand eh? My current apartment isn't the best one on campus but it is the closest to the teaching building. Other teachers living on the other side of campus have better and bigger places but they have to walk 20-25 minutes over a hill to get to work. I walk one minute. I was offered a better apartment and could have moved a few times over the years but obviously if someone's already living in the place I want I'm not going to get it.
| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Apartment visiting hours changed? Forget it. Once you bring that one up, you're on their radar. Been there, done that. Besides, there's always a morally superior FT in the crowd that will insist upon enforcement of those visitation rules. |
As you noted, this is all your experience. I've never been subject to such things, no-one I've met from other schools has either, and I wouldn't accept this. If any school insisted on limiting my freedom in this way I'd tell them no thank you and tell them why. Maybe when no-one wants to work there they'll get the message but if people accept it then they're not going to change.
In the end what you get out of a school depends on a variety of factors and no two people will have exactly the same results. |
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GeminiTiger
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 999
Location: China, 2005--Present
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
And how many of those contracts have been public universities'?
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All the points you have discussed I have either negotiated or helped a friend to do so. In my opinion it really depends on the University. If your working at a place with LOTS of foreigners I'm sure your chances of negotiation go way down but if you working at a smaller school it's possible. Like everything in China, I think it really depends on where you work.
The only thing that I really will argue about a contract is airfare. The clauses about needing a paper trail is bunk. Just give me my 10k at the end, thanks.
The school I'm going to now asked me to teach writing, I told them I wasn't the guy for that course and they said no problem.
The other things you mentioned are usually sorted after signing. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I don't work for public schools or unis. The money isn't good enough and I am not interested in working 12 hours a week for 5-8k. I only work for private outfits for more hours but much more pay. Besides the money, one of the benefits is I can negotiate everything. I own my apartment and transportation so housing is never an issue. It's pretty well like back home, where you just look at your monthly income and costs of living and go from there. I always thought of uni positions as good for the 60+ retired teachers looking for a low workload and lots of holidays or the party types. Those people have pensions or don't need cash so much. As a working stiff and family guy, I think other people who take low-pay uni jobs are either well off, crazy or lazy.
If you take a uni job in Shanghai for 8k w accommodations included you can relax and spend all your money or run around doing privates with all the hassle that entails. I'll take the mill business English with its 18k for less than 20 hours a week any time. Sure I work evenings (can sleep in if I want to) and weekends (just another day) but that's not important to me. I get money, freedom to do what I want, and a boss I can negotiate with. Motivated paying students is a big plus.
RED |
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