Job Discussion Forums

redeyes · Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 254

Dear Boarders,

I used to post here very regularly here, seeking advice from the likes of Scot47, Veiled Sentiments, John Slat, and many other knowledgeable fellows and girls � about three or four years ago, after having listened to and heeded much good advice, I got offered a great job at a good Saudi Uni, but for various reasons, I didn�t actually take the job and stayed put in my present post in Asia. Still � Saudi is of great interest to me (kids to send to uni etc!).So , I am going to respectfully ask a question that has surely been asked many times on the board � forgive me in advance for restarting an old well worn debate �

What are the difficult aspects of life in KSA? What are the really trying, irritating aspects of life? What are the things that get to you after a while? Generally speaking, what are the day to day difficulties, and the cultural,lifestyle or attitude difficulties experienced when teaching, working and living with Saudis?

And what of living in what appears to be a very limiting culture? In the previous Islamic countries I grew up in, and worked in ( Africa and Asia), even though strictly observant, many sects of Muslims ( Sufi, Shia, Sunni, Wahhabi ) lived side by side, with no problems to speak of. Even in appearance, whilst obvioulsy modest, restrained, traditional and conservative the mosques and the clothes were very bright, and bold, with no sense of the complete uniformity that I feel from Saudi. As long as one didn't drink or eat openly during Ramadan, and as long as one 'minded ones manners' and behaved modestly, I never, ever felt any sense of limitation or oppressiveness at all -- but I get the feeling that the same cannot be said for Saudi. Am I right?

Sorry for focusing on the negatives � I am not trying to stir controversy, and neither do I have a �trouble making� agenda -- I have taught for twenty two years, and I am pretty focused, and I know exactly why I am planning to go to Saudi � I am certainly not looking for any kind of �experiences� or even a social life, or even an overly easy or comfortable life � I have a wife and family, and I am going for those foundation reasons. Therefore, I do need to know the trying points, and I�d very much appreciate anyone�s replies.

A little about my background, for context for the question � I have taught for twenty two years. I have never lived in the Middle East, but I have lived in other Islamic countries, have taught Muslims for years, have close friends who are Shia and Sunni Muslims, and I am pretty familiar with Islamic scripture/culture/taboos/restrictions etc. I have been around the block a few times, and have seen more EFL burnouts,EFL mad men, and EFL careerists, EFL Machiavellians, EFL survivors and prudent and wise EFL�ers than I care to remember -- I suppose I am asking these questions on the �trying� and �wearing� aspects of Saudi, because before I get serious about my plans, I need to know �what it takes� to survive in Saudi � part of surviving in the EFL game, I�d say, is knowing one�s limits and knowing one's capabilities to survive and possibly thrive in specific environments. Therefore, I�d like to ask fellow boarders� advice on what it takes to keep ones head above the water in KSA. I know very well that a good teacher who survives and thrives in one EFL environment should exercise caution before leaping into new areas. Modesty and being aware and taking seasoned advice from longtermers are surely in order in these decisions.

Thanks in advance.

Red eyes.

nomad soul · Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world

This topic has been discussed here often; you should spend time scrolling through this forum. I also suggest doing an Internet search on expat forum saudi for more specific info on living/working in the Kingdom. However, the following are the most recent forum threads on this site:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=97849

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=96789

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=95308

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=92819

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=93361

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

It could be more difficult for your depndants than for you. Wives do not have an easy time and children often experience difficulties in adapting.

I was lucky in that when I was there with my family we lived in what was then a nice "Western" compund (Saudi Arabian Airlines residential compound in Khaledeya). We had education privileges at what was then still the American International School.

I hear that things there are no longer as sweet as they used to be !

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

Do you have a TEFL MA? If you do, you might want to look at the UAE. The pay is just as high and the living conditions for both you and your family is much freer.

VS

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

VS is always trying to hijack teachers and send them to the UAE !

KSA is not so bad IF YOU GET A GOOD EMPLOYER. And that means a civilised place to live, and support for family in terms of education, medical etc if you choose to bring them.

now in ksa · Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 35 Location: KSA

The main problems Ive found that really annoy me are getting anything "official" done. Setting up a bank account, getting a driving license, getting a sim card, getting a visitors visa. Anything that requires authority is a painful and often frustrating process. Fortunately most of these are one offs. Oh and having to ask permission to leave the country as where I work doesn't offer multiple entry visas.

Grendal · Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject:

Dear redeyes,

I am going to assume that you are probably going to get an offer with a reputable employer and go direct hire. That being said then you should have little worries about your working environment and help/support from your HR department. They will settle you in nicely and you won't be burdened with extra grief like some of us contractors. That's what I call myself.

Once you settle in to work here and have a nice nest to come home to you should be just about set to spend a couple of years that way. But after a few years like that life seem meaningless if you don't integrate with society. And here is the crux of the problem. What do you integrate into in this society? There is an expat community here that I've yet to see. I mean they do stuff, but it's all in embassies and private parties. That's not integration. I think you will be alright but cabin fever might be something to look out for here.

Scott has touched on another issue. Do you really want to put your family through this solace of civilization?

Regards.

Grendal

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

The UAE (especially Do-Buy) is the LAND OF MAMMON !

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

And the Saudis are all humble poor folks? Laughing

VS

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

There are poor Saudis. Quite a lot. And ordinary middle-class Saudis (with maids and chauffeurs !). Not sure about Emiratis !

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

There are also poor and mid-range Emiratis in the smaller Emirates, but percentage wise, a larger percentage of Emiratis are likely rich compared to Saudis.

VS

cmp45 · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 1475 Location: KSA

Table 1 Population of the GCC states,
2004 and latest (2005-6) estimates

Nationals % Expatriates %

Saudi
Arabia 16,529,302 72.9 6,144,236 27.1
UAE 722,000 19.0 3,278,000 81.0

Source:(edited) http://www.un.org/esa/population/meetings/EGM_Ittmig_Arab/P02_Kapiszewski.pdf

Given the huge differences in population of nationals, it is reasonable to assume that there would be more rich people in the UAE than in KSA. The UAE Government can afford to be more generous to their people. However, I understand there is much more to consider than this..arm chair glimpse.

redeyes · Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 254

Thanks all for the replies Grendel, nowKSA, et al.

Scot, your guidance was totally essential when I landed my job offer in KSA about three years ago -- I didn't take the job in the end, because admin at the KSA side ( I won't mention the University, but it is one with an excellent and very fair reputation) were just all over the place, and so so untogether, that I was left wandering if any of the departments were co ordinating at all ( I will not mention who it was, because they seem to have a pristine record of fair play and good treatment of staff etc.).

Anway, much appreciated all of you who took time to advise and reply. I am trying to get the feeling of how life is at a day to day level, and how inter acting with the local people can be. What are the 'testing' points and so on. Knowing if one can weather the 'trying' cultural points is essential. Every country I have taught, I have seen many EFL'ers who just can't take the test fall by the wayside, or just get weeded out by a country that obviously will not change for the transient EFL population. So -- best find out long before hand what the tough parts of the culture/lifestyle actually are.

I have known Muslims all my life : I grew up in Muslim countries, have close Muslim friends and have taught Muslims for years, and studied Islamic thought for many years too -- but I get the feeling that **none** of that prepares you for Saudi at all, which seems to be an experience 'all of its own.'

Thanks all of you -- I am trying to 'test the temperature', and also trying to gauge whether it is prudent to bring family into such an environment.

VS Thanks again for your replies -- your advice was very helpful helpful too about three years ago. What has been going on with HCT I wonder? I do remember about three years ago, there was internal conflict.

Thanks again, for all and any advice. I humbly listen!

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

What you need in abundance for KSA is patience and "tolerance of ambiguity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiguity_tolerance