Job Discussion Forums

[Jbhughes]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, I've only just come across it myself:

http://www.pwc.com/vn/en/publications/2012/assets/pwc_vietnam_newsbrief__stricter_controls_over_foreigners_working_in_vietnam_en.pdf

http://www.kpmg.com/VN/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Documents/Tax/REINFORCEMENT%20OF%20ADMINISTRATION%20OF%20FOREIGNERS%20WORKING%20IN%20VIETNAM.pdf

Letter in Vietnamese: http://thuvienphapluat.vn/archive/Cong-van-2761-LDTBXH-VL-tang-cuong-quan-ly-lao-dong-nuoc-ngoai-lam-viec-vb145572.aspx

[LettersAthruZ]

THIS is actually a new twist!!

It's interesting because usually, what happens is that MOLISA or Education and Training or Immigration or whoever will just fire out a veeerrrry generic proclaimation about how they're really, really, really gonna crack down - AND THIS TIME, THEY MEAN it, seriously! No fooling around this time....seriously: We are gonna go door-to-door ridding our glorious Commie-land of the Western Menace....

.....and, of course: Nothing ever happens and those with work-permits curse blowing hundreds of USD to obtain said permit and those on visas only continue to remain as though nothing ever happened.

THIS new one is weird, though, JB, because it cites people employed in the genres of medical, EDUCATION, aquaculture and fisheries. NOTE that it does NOT mention anything at all about construction (which is literally overrun with illegal Chinese workers, but politically and economically, Viet Nam is in NO position to piss of China right about now, sooooo......)

Who knows? Maybe this time they mean it. If they DO mean it this time and they start making trips around to the schools sniffing around for work permits, there are going to be A LARGE NUMBER of very pissed off schools and centres!

[biliana]

I agree.........

[watfordfan]

Maybe it's just been in Danang, but we've had regular checks from immigration/other "important" officials over the last year. They even ask to be informed when a member of staff is leaving the country to go on holiday, and their whereabouts while they're away.

These visits are a pain though, my boss panics each time even though all of the staff have work permits. So every few months we go through all the paperwork on file & make sure none of it has mysteriously been altered.

[EFLeducator]

I don't think there are ANY teachers in HCMC who are teaching LEGALLY.

[sigmoid]

It's the economy. The gov't needs revenue.

[mark_in_saigon]

From my my informal studies, the number of foreign English teachers without a work permit has stayed above 80% for many years. There may have been a slight decrease in the number, but I think it is still at least 80%. Some people say the number is higher, like the gentleman who said there are no wp's in HCMC. Cute, but I know there are a few.

It would be interesting to see what happened if the govt actually tried to force this issue, and interesting to wonder why they never do. Certainly almost everyone has a visa, so forcing people to get a certain legal doc should at least be theoretically possible. One can never know what these guys are actually up to.

When you look at general enforcement of policies and laws across VN, you realize that any particular rule is subject to the standard VN processes. Very interesting to consider the big banking scandal. The govt decided to hammer a few guys for their illegal actions. Now, if you were to honestly judge whether or not all the other bank executives followed all the laws, how many of them would have to be arrested? 5%? 50%? 95%? Uhhh, yeah, I think so too. Seems to me that the govt selects the occasional whipping boy for some reason, but as the system is so dependent on going on the way it is set up, all we can ever see is symbolic enforcement.

I always read the news from China, as I see VN more or less emulating their process. The Bo scandal is very illustrative. Here we have a so called princeling who was trying to seize power based on his one-upmanship among his peers, and so they finally found he had been abusing the system. If fairly judging the other members of the elite there, what percentage of them are abusing the system?

We are just observers to all this craziness. I personally think real enforcement of rules would be a good thing, but then it would also require a huge change in their system, in many ways. In the question of WP's, it would have to be a reasonable process, almost like getting a visa instead of the nightmare it is now. If they just want to generate revs from it, fine, but make it transparent. Not very likely.

Really, in my opinion, the big issue holding us back is not the expense, and not just the hoops one must go thru. It is instead the transient nature of the work and workers. I would like to see a study on what the average duration of employment in any one job is among our guys, as well as length of time overall teaching in VN. My guess is that the first number is well less than 6 months if considering all jobs, maybe closer to 3. You guys working in better jobs have to factor in the lower level schools you do not spend time in. My guess is that the average teacher (again, considering all schools) stays in VN less than a year. So the wp is really a long term rule for short term people, and until this disconnect is addressed, the issue remains. One school exec told me that many of the schools purposely turn over a teacher when the time limit comes for him to have to have his wp. So we can keep up this musical chairs routine, or go with an intelligent and well managed process. I have a guess as to which direction we will go.

[skarper]

Good points M-I-S.

Can someone set up a poll here that would get us some idea?

We need

How long have you been here?
How many jobs have you had?
How many months unemployed/resting/not teaching.

I too tend to think 3-6 months in any one job is liable to be a long stint. I guess the pattern for many is to do an entry job for 1-2 months move to a better one for 2-3 months. Maybe take a break and then get a job they like for about 6 months before they finally get sick of the place and move on. This is 90% a guess but it feels right.

If they wanted to enforce WPs they could. If they wanted to improve the standards of EFL teachers in Vietnam, they could. That they don't do either says it all really.

[mark_in_saigon]

[Porlestone]

Good replies and plenty of good points.

I see that one more important thing was not mentioned yet, and that is this is largely based on 'power.' The Viet loves to bask in his glamour and prestige, and many in Vietnam think this century is some new Vietnam Dynasty. These new rules are a direct reflection of that.

Five or six years ago, when there was nothing more than rumours of increased requirements (but not even a hint of implementation), Vietnam was relatively a free market for your average foreigner. It was at it's most effective, and it worked. There were big drawbacks back then as well, but the trouble-free visa, decent number of schools hiring, decent pay, and cheap food and drink made Vietnam a "viable option" for eslers.

Now the Vietnamese think they are some kind of soon-to-be-Singapore. I would argue that a large reason, if not an even bigger one than "economics" or "financial", is that the Viets like the idea of control and making foreigners dance around for their validation. I would also add that this isn't the Gov't vs. the schools and teachers, this is the government working together with the schools, opposing the teachers.

I've personally witnessed even "legit" schools use (more like misuse) these new regulations to intimidate teachers, one who was actually pretty good, with the excuse that he didn't "completely qualify" for the WP/Work Visa thereby cutting his classes. Simultaneously, they kept, and continue to keep, at least a few teachers who