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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of Latin's death throes was a 'new method' of teaching it.

Out went the tables of declensions:

Nauta Nautae
Genitive Nautae Nautarum
Dative Nautae Nautis
Accusative Nautam Nautas
Ablative Nauta Nautis
Vocative Nauta Nautae

And out went conjugation tables:

amo = I love
amas = you (singular) love
amat = he, she or it loves
amamus = we love
amatis = you (plural) love
amant = they love

..and it went downhill from there. No more Caesar's Gallic Wars, no more Ovid or Virgil. Instead, there was a woeful attempt to 'sex up' Latin by making it relevant to the modern age. Crappy school books with dialogues set in contemporary America, half the vocabulary having had to have been made up - Jeez!

The result was that students not only failed to communicate in Latin (a daft notion in itself), but that they also failed to learn ANYTHING of value at all. Hence the resulting poverty of language and learning seen today, in random EFL staff rooms round the world.
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People on CELTA do have to know quite a lot of formal grammar, much of it before they even get admitted to the course. My point was about our original schooling.
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poll? No, empirical evidence is not the same as popular opinion. Except in the people's paradise however, where if you nip a plant at the right time, its offspring willl become something entirely different. Thus sprach Comrade Lysenko.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear oh dear, Cole, your sense of humour is on the wane. The poll suggestion is merely tittering at the fact that anyone who dares to disagree with the wisdom of the great Vozhd usually starts a poll to try to undermine common sense and reason. You are quite right that this is not the same as empirical evidence. So, just look at those who have studied Latin, and contrast that to those who have not, and you'll find wildly differing standards.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

Based on purely personal experience (parochial schools: eight years of Latin - most definitely including the grammar,) I would agree with you, Sasha.

It may seem obvious, but also based on personal experience, I'd say that a general statement as to grammar's helping students learn a foreign language probably will have many exceptions (as, indeed, grammar itself does.) Learning grammar may help some students not so much whereas it seems to help others a lot.

I think we all have differing learning styles; what works well with one may not work as well with another.

For me, learning Latin (with the grammar) has, I'd say, helped my English learning and teaching.

Valete,
Johannes
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salve amicus!

Whatever about the Latin's benefits to the process of learning a foreign language, it is the benefits to learning one's own language that I was referring to. I think we broadly agree on that.

The idea of learning styles etc is all well and good, but the results of a hard taskmaster at the blackboard drilling cases into young, forming minds speak for themselves. Nobody in or out of EFL 30 odd years ago would ever have asked for help with basic English grammar. They wouldn't have needed it.

Ipsa scientia potestas est!


Vale,

Sasha
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AMICUS ? Nominative ???????????? Should be vocative you miserable child !

Salve, amice !

But you are right on the role of Latin in education ! Laudetur lingua latina !

Could it be that DARK FORCES are at work here ?


Last edited by scot47 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I was right but had to check

http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/noun:amicus
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame, shame! Absolutely right! See what happens when a fellow hasn't had a Latin lesson for nearly 30 years? Everything goes to hell.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you undertake to read a text from tacitus or Caear DAILY, I will grant you temporary absoilution. Take care - the FIEND stalks the Earth, seeking whom he may devour.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will Sallust or Marcus Aurelius suffice to ward off the fiend and gain absoilution?
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
AMICUS ? Nominative ???????????? Should be vocative you miserable child !

Salve, amice !


AMICE? Vocative?

Piffle.

Should be genitive at the absolute minimum.

AMICUM

Honestly, tsk, tsk.

Warning: this is the one and only time that Teacher In Rome has trolled. In Latin, I might add.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An inability to decide when to use the Vocative should DEBAR "Teacher in Rome" from ALL language classrooms in perpetuity. Fie on you, Sirrah !
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Teacher in Rome



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a sirrah Scot!

What's a vocative, anyway? And do we have it in English?

While we're on the subject, what's a dative, ablative and genitive? Nominative or accusative?

I think we should all know. (Tapping feet impatiently.)
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, Teacher in Rome!
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