Korean Job Discussion Forums

[iggyb]

I know its been discussed before, but I didn't read those, and I want fresh opinions by people who have done both or are currently in China.

I'm especially intersted in how stable the ESL industry is in China (compared to what it was in Korea now and back in the 1990s when they first started bringing over a large number of expats).

When I researched going abroad in the mid-1990s, and what I've learned since then, every Asian nation that put a big emphasis on native speakers ---- had a rough patch for a few years early on.

This included Japan which had the most mature industry at the time. Back then, Taiwan had just reopened its industry after shutting the whole thing down for 2 years due to the amount of fly-by-night places that were ripping off students and expats.

Is China going through anything like that? Are contracts generally honored? Are university jobs really university (language) jobs or hakwons on campus that add hours teaching all ages from the local communities (something you still see in Korea at times)?

Korea has gotten much better in terms of the Labor Board handling common E2 and other ESLers' complaints. The D-10 job hunting visa and other changes in immigration regulations has improved Korea's position in the global ESL industry.

10 years or so ago, Japan was the tougher market to break into - especially if you didn't want to pay your airfare over - but it was the much safer choice than Korea with roughly similar pay. Especially if you had a little ESL experience.

Now, Korea has made life easier for the expat ESLer. The pay is still roughly similar, right? At least outside of Tokyo? And Korea still pays airfare.

China pays airfare and university jobs are more plentiful and easier to get even for those with no experience and just a BA. The pay is a good bit lower than Korea, however. At least in terms of base pay and perhaps not taking into account number of hours in-class.

What about Taiwan? I haven't read about it in years...

Other Asian nations, and the jobs in Central and South America still don't compare to Korea in terms of money. Perhaps some International Schools with strict requirements on creditials and experience do, but even there, the ones I've seen the last couple of months are lower than the average hakwon or public school jobs in Korea.

More than likely, I'm going to go to the Middle East. I qualify now. Pay is better than in Korea even at the higher end of the public school positions.

But my original reason for looking beyond Korea was that I've done Korea enough. I've lived and worked there and read enough about its history. I'd really like to get something outside East Asia - which is another reason China doesn't appeal much to me.

But, I don't believe in putting all eggs in one basket.

And I'm intersted in what others know from experience or have learned 2nd hand from friends about ESL in China vs Korea and beyond...

[YTMND]

[iggyb]

Thanks. That is the kind of answer I was hoping to get - from someone with experience in Korea and the other country.

[byrddogs]

OP, are you licensed back in the States?

[iggyb]

Yes. MA in Teaching. BA in English with TESOL coursework. Licensed in GA and TN in English Language Arts (6-12) and ESL (K-12). 9 years experience - almost all in Korea with 1 year ESL in an American high school.

The difference looking now, the Middle East is open because of the MA and International Schools because of certification in the US. But, I've got bad timing for International Schools and the pay for many of them is lower than Korea.

If money weren't an issue, I'd go to Costa Rica or somewhere in the Carribean or maybe someplace like Chile. I could study some Spanish and work with Hispanics which would help for future jobs in the US.

I'm also just curious about the situation in China and Japan these days:

China is the new hot market. Does it or will it have the common problems others that were hot for inexperience expats had in years past?

Korea's market has matured in many ways but also tightened up. How much is it becoming like Japan? And has Japan changed significantly in the last 5 years or so?

In the late 1990s, I met a few expats who had come over from Japan and they were all planning on going back there after being roughed up in the hakwon industry.

It's a good bit different in Korea these days...

Has the market in Japan gotten even tigther? Looser? The same? I don't know....

[iggyb]

I forgot Thailand.

That seemed to be a fairly mature market when I was reading around in the 1990s.

I met 1 or 2 people who had done that before. They liked it, and what I read was it was a fairly good place for expats to go, but the pay was low, and they required some sort of quick certification program too.

It doesn't look like things have changed much there.

Now, most countries seem to favor a short-term certification in TESOL.

And some of the few places I looked at for Thailand were still offering that kind of course and certification as well as the opportunity to teach and earn some money.

[byrddogs]

[iggyb]

How is switching jobs in China?

I can't wait around until Feb or March.

The plan was to return to the US and get an ESL job here or in straight English if need be, but that didn't pan out. There aren't that many ESL jobs...And many of them are in elementary schools...

...And to my consternation, the No Child Left Behind Act has seen so many admin people getting fired or moved around in public schools in the US now, they are tightening restrictions on what is considered "highly qualified"

--- so most ESL jobs in elementary school wanted you to be certified in early childhood education and ESL - even though ESL certification is supposed to be K-12 and I've taught pre-school and elementary school kids aplenty...My certification is in secondary school English and ESL (K-12) and there just weren't many of those jobs this year. (Bad economy means education budget cuts which puts pressure on special programs like ESL, it seems.)

That is significantly different in my state than when I went to Korea in 2009. I saw things tighten up a good bit each year after I started the MA in 2006.

I didn't expect it to be this tough right now, though I'm typically a pessimist and like to have backup plans.

I mean, I got an ESL job offer in the US 2 years ago while still in Korea through a skype interview, which I didn't expect because you usually need to be here for a face-to-face interview, but I had to turn it down due to a busted up hip and femur that caused me to delay my return.

This hiring season, the ESL jobs that came up were more selective.

Anyway, I wasn't looking for jobs overseas until the start of last month, and that put me behind in applying for jobs.

If I end up going back to East Asia, I'd consider going to China now in a university or other position and then switching to an International School if that were possible.

Another thing about International Schools --- it sounds like it is more like regular English Language Arts work with near-native fluency or native-speaking students. That would be fine, but I do prefer ESL learners and teaching ESL. It is what I've done the most by far and what I like.

If I got a job teaching regular English in the US, I'd keep looking for an open ESL position in the area each year until I found one.

If the Middle East works out, I might concentrate on building up some savings for some years and then relocate back to Hawaii teaching ESL in a public school or hakwon-type job....That's the dream......Or in the Carribean....when money drops lower on the priority list...

Lastly, it is also kinda late for looking in the ME too, but Saudi Arabia is more open, because it has a somewhat negative reputation, from what I'm reading, due to a more restrictive culture.

I rarely drink and would rather see the sites or be out in nature and learn about a new area than head out to bars and night clubs. So, I'm wondering how much less culture shock I'd have there than what I'm reading about in the ME forums here...

[byrddogs]

[iggyb]

Since this thread is about changes and current situations in the ESL and teaching industry, and since the topic of ESL teaching in home countries sometimes comes up, I'll mention more about the US market:

Back in 2006, in the area where I'm from and in much of the US, there was a shortage in English Language Arts and ESL teachers. ESL programs in most parts of my state were fairly new. Maybe two sections of the state had had significant, established numbers of ESL students and ESL programs that had been around for 10 years or more, but most were trying to catch up.

Back then, in the MA program I started that would lead to certification, most of the new student got a full time teaching job on temporary certificates by the start of spring semester - so we were able to teach while finishing the degree.

I got an ESL position fairly easily because of my experience in Korea, and because the TESOL coursework I'd taken as an undergrad was going to make me certified in two areas when I finished the MA.

Almost nobody didn't have a job lined up for the next school year by summer. And before the program finished in the summer, everybody had a job.

In the next group of students, probably less than half of them had been able to land a job while studying. Schools weren't handing out temporary certificates.

When the spring hiring season came around, most people had a job lined up by the summer, and almost everybody except 1 or 2 had a job starting that August (around the same time they'd get the degree and certification).

With the next group, it was sad. Almost nobody got a job while they were studying. And much worse -- only a few had lined up a job by the end of the summer. The majority did not have a job when the public school year started even though they had finished the degree and certification by early August.

Why?

Because so many admin people and school board members have been losing their jobs in the US due to the No Child Left Behind Act, they are applying the "highly qualified" rule to the point of absurdity:

They weren't touching people who didn't already have certification in hand --- even if they were going to be certified in early August - usually before the public school semester began...

The county I live in failed to make adequate progress is only 1 area (special education). They replaced the whole school board.

And the new school board decided they would no longer have anybody who wasn't fully certified - whether they would complete certification during the semester not.

So, those finishing up a degree, or were hired in a special program to teach courses in an area that matched their previous career - like computer specialists or business specialist - were let go. 6 of them in my high school. Who knows how many across the county.

1 year earlier, these people were considered highly qualified and employable due to their prior careers and/or because they were finishing up certification programs.

The next year, they had no job.

It is similar with having teaching certificates in another state: Most states will have reciprocal certification agreements with each other - especially those that neighbor each other.

Just a few years ago, when I checked on it, schools were fine with interviewing you if you were certified or going to be certified in another state. They understood you could just do the paperwork and become certified once you moved into their state.

Now, they won't give you an interview or are very reluctant. I life in a tri-state area, and I've checked into working in one smaller city the past few years. This year, they had an opening for 4 ESL teachers and I got an interview, but my certification in ESL hadn't gone through with them yet. (English had - but I didn't know I had to go back to my BA school and get them to do some paperwork too to get the ESL certification. I figured the paperwork from my homestate certification people would be enough. Live and learn...)

That is what is going on in the teaching industry in the US - at least in my state and area of the country.

I could look in other areas of the country, or in nearby states, especially in places that have a high ESL demand, but if it isn't in Hawaii, I'd just as soon go back overseas to some place new for a few years than relocate to another American city or state.

[iggyb]

[viciousdinosaur]

So I'll put my two cents into this thread.

I have worked in China briefly. I flew over there for a two-month camp contract. I was largely isolated in a facility in the country-side, so I didn't get to see much of China. The classes were huge but in general more relaxed. Food was better. I'm willing to go and do work in China at any time and I think I probably will more in the future.

I also have a friend who has been working in China for two years now. She is a licensed teacher. She loves her job and makes much more money than she did in Korea. That is also why she's renewed for a second year. She does complain though that the internet can be a bit of a hassle. Getting on to Facebook in particular means subscribing to a good proxy server. But she's on Facebook even more than I am so she must have a system.

I did have another friend who lived for a while in Beijing. She complained about how expensive Beijing was, particularly the rent. It might be a good idea to steer clear of the metropolises.

[byrddogs]

[ttompatz]

Please allow me to toss in my 20 won worth of free opinion.

China is now what Korea was 10 years ago (about the time of or just before the World Cup). It isn't quite what Korea was in the late 90s but not much farther along either.

Thailand at the entry level is not much better than it was 10 years ago. There are a few decent language centers, lots of dodgy ones and even more dodgy "agencies" that take care of providing teaching staff for those k-12 schools that have no clue but need to jump on the EFL/ESL bandwagon.

On the upside, for those who do hold something more than a generic BA and a "no-name" branded generic TEFL cert there are decent jobs to be had (my after tax remuneration package last year was about 1 million thb / 35m krw with net savings on the order of 22m krw).

Taiwan has some decent packages (88k twd/month (3.3m krw)+ benefits) for teachers with home country certification. Only a fool or a newbie would head there for jobs in the buxibans.

The remuneration package for the NET program in Hong Kong is in the same range as the government jobs in Taiwan.

Top end, private, international schools (in Asia) start off with remuneration packages in the US$40k range and peak out at about US$100k. The field is highly competitive at the top end and the work standards are HIGH.

Back to the entry level (BA and TEFL cert), there is decent money to be made in Vietnam ($2000/mo is not hard to find) with terms similar to what you find in your average Korean hagwan.

Throughout the ASEAN + 3 the demand for teachers will remain high for the foreseeable future (collectively about 150 thousand jobs openings per year).

.

[byrddogs]