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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
I see your point. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Hmm... What happens to police units when Playboy features naked policewomen? |
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alffy
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Well, said, yet entirely unnecessary. As you so succinctly pointed out earlier, if it is prohibited by the UCMJ, that's all there is to it.
Don't like the rules? Feel free to take a walk at the end of your enlistment. When one signs on the dotted line and takes the oath, one is beholden to adhere to the rules of the service for the length of that service. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: ... |
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But, apparently, that's only because of the uniform factor.
What if she'd been in her birthday suit the whole time? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| So if the military is so offended by Playboy magazine, do they ban their soldiers from reading it on base? |
The issue was she did these erotic poses IN HER UNIFORM
such is a violation of the UCMJ.
Doing that in uniform brings discredit to the military. |
OkaY, but if she had hosted a charity picnic for blind children while in uniform, would that have brought discredit to the military?
And if we say that no, posing for Playboy is much more offensive than hosting a charity picnic, then I again have to wonder about the military's attitude toward Playboy in general. Another poster seemed to suggest that it is actually sold on military bases. Can anyone confirm this? |
No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Yeah, cuz everyone knows nobody in the military does anything BAD. Nobody realized the people around them are HUMAN.
There's technically an issue with her using her office, but everyone getting drunk as hell, beating hell out of each other or others, and abusing their families... nah... none of THAT happens. And taking off your clothes is SUCH a disruptive practice... on your own time...
If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
Yeah, cuz everyone knows nobody in the military does anything BAD. Nobody realized the people around them are HUMAN.
There's technically an issue with her using her office, but everyone getting drunk as hell, beating hell out of each other or others, and abusing their families... nah... none of THAT happens. And taking off your clothes is SUCH a disruptive practice... on your own time...
If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway. |
Very smart, intelligent, and reasonable response as usual from EFLtrainer.  |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| So if the military is so offended by Playboy magazine, do they ban their soldiers from reading it on base? |
The issue was she did these erotic poses IN HER UNIFORM
such is a violation of the UCMJ.
Doing that in uniform brings discredit to the military. |
OkaY, but if she had hosted a charity picnic for blind children while in uniform, would that have brought discredit to the military?
And if we say that no, posing for Playboy is much more offensive than hosting a charity picnic, then I again have to wonder about the military's attitude toward Playboy in general. Another poster seemed to suggest that it is actually sold on military bases. Can anyone confirm this? |
No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Yeah, cuz everyone knows nobody in the military does anything BAD. Nobody realized the people around them are HUMAN.
There's technically an issue with her using her office, but everyone getting drunk as hell, beating hell out of each other or others, and abusing their families... nah... none of THAT happens. And taking off your clothes is SUCH a disruptive practice... on your own time...
If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway. |
Oh please EFL. You need to get real, as usual.
You try to spin this into something its not. yes people take off their clothes, yes people do bad things but what you described isnt the same thing that happened here.
She posed nude , in uniform in a office in a nationally published magazine.
To which everyone on her base can read.
You should be the last one talking about being useful to the military, you have no idea what your talking about as usual. Men in the military are human, just like you.
If they see their boss naked in playboy, they ae going to talk about it. Said female sergeant will likely become the gossip center of her base.
TGhis all detracts from her authority as a Sergeant! Shell go from being a rspected authroity fiogure to the talk of the base.
Also men in the military just like any other men, for the most part like naked women and sex etc.
Everytime from then on when said female Sergeant addresses her people, said people will be reminded of her playboy stint.
Anythiong that detracts from discipline and order in the military will not be allowed, such as this.
You and others do not understand the military. In the miltiary there is strict authority, a chain of command that is essential for carrying out operations and if you think the military is going to jeopardize that just so everyone can do what ever they want youve got another thing coming.
"If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway.
"
That is the dumbest comment you have ever made on this board. The guys of her workforce anyway who work for her, of course are going to think of that. What do you think EFL, that once we become part of the miltiary that we lose all libido and see to have sexual desire? Get real. you have no clue what your talking about and as far as Im concerned you have no experience from which to make a sound judgement on this issue. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| So if the military is so offended by Playboy magazine, do they ban their soldiers from reading it on base? |
The issue was she did these erotic poses IN HER UNIFORM
such is a violation of the UCMJ.
Doing that in uniform brings discredit to the military. |
OkaY, but if she had hosted a charity picnic for blind children while in uniform, would that have brought discredit to the military?
And if we say that no, posing for Playboy is much more offensive than hosting a charity picnic, then I again have to wonder about the military's attitude toward Playboy in general. Another poster seemed to suggest that it is actually sold on military bases. Can anyone confirm this? |
No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Yeah, cuz everyone knows nobody in the military does anything BAD. Nobody realized the people around them are HUMAN.
There's technically an issue with her using her office, but everyone getting drunk as hell, beating hell out of each other or others, and abusing their families... nah... none of THAT happens. And taking off your clothes is SUCH a disruptive practice... on your own time...
If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| So if the military is so offended by Playboy magazine, do they ban their soldiers from reading it on base? |
The issue was she did these erotic poses IN HER UNIFORM
such is a violation of the UCMJ.
Doing that in uniform brings discredit to the military. |
OkaY, but if she had hosted a charity picnic for blind children while in uniform, would that have brought discredit to the military?
And if we say that no, posing for Playboy is much more offensive than hosting a charity picnic, then I again have to wonder about the military's attitude toward Playboy in general. Another poster seemed to suggest that it is actually sold on military bases. Can anyone confirm this? |
No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Yeah, cuz everyone knows nobody in the military does anything BAD. Nobody realized the people around them are HUMAN.
There's technically an issue with her using her office, but everyone getting drunk as hell, beating hell out of each other or others, and abusing their families... nah... none of THAT happens. And taking off your clothes is SUCH a disruptive practice... on your own time...
If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway. |
Oh please EFL. You need to get real, as usual.
You try to spin this into something its not. yes people take off their clothes, yes people do bad things but what you described isnt the same thing that happened here.
She posed nude , in uniform in a office in a nationally published magazine.
To which everyone on her base can read.
You should be the last one talking about being useful to the military, you have no idea what your talking about as usual. Men in the military are human, just like you.
If they see their boss naked in playboy, they ae going to talk about it. Said female sergeant will likely become the gossip center of her base.
TGhis all detracts from her authority as a Sergeant! Shell go from being a rspected authroity fiogure to the talk of the base.
Also men in the military just like any other men, for the most part like naked women and sex etc.
Everytime from then on when said female Sergeant addresses her people, said people will be reminded of her playboy stint.
Anythiong that detracts from discipline and order in the military will not be allowed, such as this.
You and others do not understand the military. In the miltiary there is strict authority, a chain of command that is essential for carrying out operations and if you think the military is going to jeopardize that just so everyone can do what ever they want youve got another thing coming.
"If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway.
"
That is the dumbest comment you have ever made on this board. The guys of her workforce anyway who work for her, of course are going to think of that. What do you think EFL, that once we become part of the miltiary that we lose all libido and see to have sexual desire? Get real. you have no clue what your talking about and as far as Im concerned you have no experience from which to make a sound judgement on this issue. |
Both you rightwing wackos are examples of why we have the most backward military. Other countries have no trouble with women nor homosexuals. Get over yourselves. Take your meathead mentality and stick it somewhere more useful. And, while I have not been in the military, my step-father was, uncles and cousins were and a brother was. I've read a fair lot on military history, etc., as well. I also grew up in a military town, etc. You ijits think you have to be military to recognize a meathead? Guess again...
The military, since you don't seem to get it, is all about discipline and chain of command. It is not about agreeing with your boss, it is about taking orders. Which is worse, thinking your boss is hot, or thinking your boss is an idiot and is going to get you killed? Personally, I'm thinking the latter is a bigger problem.
I spun nothing. I expect our soldiers to be trained to follow orders unless illegal and/or immoral. Anything else is excuses for weakness and lack of character. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| So if the military is so offended by Playboy magazine, do they ban their soldiers from reading it on base? |
The issue was she did these erotic poses IN HER UNIFORM
such is a violation of the UCMJ.
Doing that in uniform brings discredit to the military. |
OkaY, but if she had hosted a charity picnic for blind children while in uniform, would that have brought discredit to the military?
And if we say that no, posing for Playboy is much more offensive than hosting a charity picnic, then I again have to wonder about the military's attitude toward Playboy in general. Another poster seemed to suggest that it is actually sold on military bases. Can anyone confirm this? |
No they wouldnt mind that but your missing the issue entirely. Discredit to the military it is also detracting from discipline. This woman is a Sergeant which means she is in charge of young airmen and airwoman doing a job.
How does it look for her authority and for unit discipline when her men and women go out and see the playboy with her in it?
That creates a negative effect in discipline among the unit.
It's like this, if you see your boss naked in a magazine it will effect you won't it? There'd be gossip at your school about it and you would see he or her in a new light entirely. This can't be allowed to happen in the military. |
Yeah, cuz everyone knows nobody in the military does anything BAD. Nobody realized the people around them are HUMAN.
There's technically an issue with her using her office, but everyone getting drunk as hell, beating hell out of each other or others, and abusing their families... nah... none of THAT happens. And taking off your clothes is SUCH a disruptive practice... on your own time...
If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway. |
Oh please EFL. You need to get real, as usual.
You try to spin this into something its not. yes people take off their clothes, yes people do bad things but what you described isnt the same thing that happened here.
She posed nude , in uniform in a office in a nationally published magazine.
To which everyone on her base can read.
You should be the last one talking about being useful to the military, you have no idea what your talking about as usual. Men in the military are human, just like you.
If they see their boss naked in playboy, they ae going to talk about it. Said female sergeant will likely become the gossip center of her base.
TGhis all detracts from her authority as a Sergeant! Shell go from being a rspected authroity fiogure to the talk of the base.
Also men in the military just like any other men, for the most part like naked women and sex etc.
Everytime from then on when said female Sergeant addresses her people, said people will be reminded of her playboy stint.
Anythiong that detracts from discipline and order in the military will not be allowed, such as this.
You and others do not understand the military. In the miltiary there is strict authority, a chain of command that is essential for carrying out operations and if you think the military is going to jeopardize that just so everyone can do what ever they want youve got another thing coming.
"If the meatheads she works with can't keep their minds on the bullets, present or future, coming at them because they've got an image of her hooters in their heads, they aren't going to be much use to the military, anyway.
"
That is the dumbest comment you have ever made on this board. The guys of her workforce anyway who work for her, of course are going to think of that. What do you think EFL, that once we become part of the miltiary that we lose all libido and see to have sexual desire? Get real. you have no clue what your talking about and as far as Im concerned you have no experience from which to make a sound judgement on this issue. |
Both you rightwing wackos are examples of why we have the most backward military. Other countries have no trouble with women nor homosexuals. Get over yourselves. Take your meathead mentality and stick it somewhere more useful. And, while I have not been in the military, my step-father was, uncles and cousins were and a brother was. I've read a fair lot on military history, etc., as well. I also grew up in a military town, etc. You ijits think you have to be military to recognize a meathead? Guess again...
The military, since you don't seem to get it, is all about discipline and chain of command. It is not about agreeing with your boss, it is about taking orders. Which is worse, thinking your boss is hot, or thinking your boss is an idiot and is going to get you killed? Personally, I'm thinking the latter is a bigger problem.
I spun nothing. I expect our soldiers to be trained to follow orders unless illegal and/or immoral. Anything else is excuses for weakness and lack of character. |
EFL your out of your league here. Yet again you attempt to spin this, insert words that aren't and totally misunderstand the issue.
First:The military has no problem with women. They serve just like men. This isn't a male female issue. If it was a male Sergeant on the cover of Playgirl stripping in his uniform the same thing would have the same results.
2nd: This has nothing to do with a service members agreeign or disagreing wityh what she did. It is about authority. That female sergeant is now the talk of the base most likely, almost like a joke. She has certainly lost respect from many. That, and just like any man would do when seeing any other woman in Playboy, when they see said Sergeant, the playboy thing will be their first thought.
It ruins her image as what she is, and brings discredit upon the armed forces.
Furthermore, by doing it in her uniform it gives the misleading appearence that the service endorsed the shoot.
Anything that bringas discredit to the militry or is not conducive to good order and disipline is forbidden.
notice that. good ORDER and discipline.
Im sure this commotion has created some disorder in her unit.
Also, I don't care who you know that was in the military.
I don't care how many movies or documentatries you saw. Big deal. You don't know how it is on the inside , and you are certainly not qaulified to make asuch assumptions as you are.
I know some ESL guys. have seeen articles about it, and I read Daves alot. Does this qualify me to elaborate on how ESL works, how it is, etc?
No, I didn't think so. |
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alffy
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| The military, since you don't seem to get it, is all about discipline and chain of command. It is not about agreeing with your boss, it is about taking orders. |
I think you summed up the situation aptly. The military is about discipline and taking orders.
The standing orders in the military is that to maintain discipline you must obey the regulations of the service in which you serve, which you agree to do when joining. The regulations clearly prohibit any action which might bring in to question the integrity of the uniform, unit, branch of service, or US government which you serve. The discretion of what violates the said regulations is entirely within the authority of your chain of command and the Judge Advocate Corp which adjudicates the UCMJ.
The woman in question was determined to have violated the regulations. End of story.
Whether you, her, me or NAVFC agree with that determination is immaterial. She violated the regs, she will face charges, she will either be vindicated or convicted. Regardless of the outcome, she was wrong because the service said she was wrong.
If she doesn't like it, she can just not reenlist when her contract ends. I did twice, it's a nice feeling. |
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Cerebroden
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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agreed with what most of you have said. the military is not a democracy, you violate the UCMJ you're done.
That said, this broad was a DI, meanign she's supposed to be training fresh 17 year old recruits. Tell me how effective you really think she's going to be after every single male in her platoon has already put a salvo across her glossy little face? |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cerebroden wrote: |
agreed with what most of you have said. the military is not a democracy, you violate the UCMJ you're done.
That said, this broad was a DI, meanign she's supposed to be training fresh 17 year old recruits. Tell me how effective you really think she's going to be after every single male in her platoon has already put a salvo across her glossy little face? |
" Tell me how effective you really think she's going to be after every single male in her platoon has already put a salvo across her glossy little face?[/quote]"
HAHHAHAH thats a nice one. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| alffy wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| The military, since you don't seem to get it, is all about discipline and chain of command. It is not about agreeing with your boss, it is about taking orders. |
I think you summed up the situation aptly. The military is about discipline and taking orders.
The standing orders in the military is that to maintain discipline you must obey the regulations of the service in which you serve, which you agree to do when joining. The regulations clearly prohibit any action which might bring in to question the integrity of the uniform, unit, branch of service, or US government which you serve. The discretion of what violates the said regulations is entirely within the authority of your chain of command and the Judge Advocate Corp which adjudicates the UCMJ.
The woman in question was determined to have violated the regulations. End of story.
Whether you, her, me or NAVFC agree with that determination is immaterial. She violated the regs, she will face charges, she will either be vindicated or convicted. Regardless of the outcome, she was wrong because the service said she was wrong.
If she doesn't like it, she can just not reenlist when her contract ends. I did twice, it's a nice feeling. |
I have at no time disagreed with this point. Reading comprehension classes would benefit some of the posters here.
The issue I addressed was the claim that her posing should affect command. Bullshit. IF a soldier can't get his brain out of his groin, he's the one that should be disciplined.
The soldier who posed made a mistake in doing so under the offices of her station in the military. This was a mistake. Had she posed with no metnion of her rank, or even without any trappings of it even if identified as "Sgt. ....", then I would disagree with her being disciplined. But, again, using weakened command as an excuse, as some have in this thread, proves nothing more than that the posters stating such are not the best and brightest our military has seen. I guarantee you any number of men under her command have already thought long and hard on the subject of some horizontal training. (Pardon the puns.) Her posing isn't gong to change that overmuch. The fact that rape is such a problem in the military makes this abundantly clear. |
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alffy
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| I have at no time disagreed with this point. Reading comprehension classes would benefit some of the posters here. |
Nothing like personal insults to raise the level of debate.
The problem here is not that I lack reading comprehension, but rather you seem to miss my point. None of the discussion on this topic has any real relevance to the topic, which is cut and dry.
What all the discussion is about, particularly from your point, is the insertion of personal political perspectives into a rather staight-forward topic.
Or is this not a political point presented as argument here?:
| Quote: |
| Both you rightwing wackos are examples of why we have the most backward military. Other countries have no trouble with women nor homosexuals. |
Do you really believe this issue is about her as a female member of the military? Do you think she is being persecuted due to her sex?
The irony is I probably agree quite closely with you on your politics here, but you chose to take a rather immature route due to my choice of separating my political views from my interpretation of her actions and the military's response.
I believe the US military is still considerably behind the rest of society in its cultural mores and practices and needs to try harder to catch up. I believe, as well, that thay have made tremendous progress since the '80s when I first served.
I also believe the woman involved was a complete fool and deserves whatever she gets in this case. |
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