Korean Job Discussion Forums

[gang ah jee]

In another thread, a certain rear end in a top hat suggested that I go and live for several years in the 'socialist paradise' that is Hanoi. Now, I've already spent about a year in Hanoi, and miss living there, so I was thinking not too far in the future I may follow the suggestion. It also got me thinking about the similarities and differences between Korea and Vietnam.

Basically, it's been 32 years since the communist north brought about Vietnamese reunification (aka The Fall of Saigon) and about 20 years since the doi moi (renovation) reforms that reopened the economy. The communist party is still in control and suppresses the fledgling pro-democracy movement, but on the whole it still experiences a great deal of good will as the legitimate successor of the Viet Minh, and is perceived to have led the country to independence. The economy is getting better every year, and most people feel like opportunities and quality of life are improving very rapidly and are positive and hopeful about the future. No-one really needs to be feeling too sorry for the Vietnamese, and they certainly aren't feeling sorry for themselves.

The Koreas, on the other hand, have been divided for around 60 years, and while two-thirds of the population is enjoying relative prosperity (on paper, at least), the other third is trapped in one of the worst places to be on earth. On top of that, even the rich ones don't seem particularly happy about the state of things and seem to spend a lot of time feeling miserable about being Korean.

In fact, I vaguely recall some Newsweek article in 2005 that actually ranked Vietnam higher on a 'happiness scale' (however that's measured) than South Korea. Vietnamese GDP is less than 5% of South Korean GDP, with twice the population, however.

So the whole point of this is, I had always thought that it was a Good Thing that South Korea had been saved from forced unification with the north, but Vietnam made me question that somewhat. I'm not down with communism by any means, but it seems to me that North Korea being the hellhole it is has a lot more to do with the continued cold war with the US and the South than it does to do with communism per se - that is, I figured that a unified communist Korea would have discovered the failings of communism long ago, and would have also been in a position to institute free market reforms, much as Vietnam did within a decade of reunification. Basically, I was thinking that if the North had won, overall Koreans might be in a much better position than they are (on average, because the north brings it down) today. Sure, they may be poorer, buy psychologically the nation might be a much healthier place.

Of course, I could be completely wrong here - under strong Maoist influence, Korea could have outdone China for bloodiness in land reform and cultural revolution style brutality. Perhaps it would have ended up as a North-East Asian Cambodia. (Vietnam overall is anti-Maoism, and never quite got into the whole 'let's kill as many people as we can because Mao thinks it's a good idea' deal).

On the other side of this is the question of what would have happened if China had not got involved and the south had won. Would Korea be a major power? Perhaps the US would have neglected it more and given the Japanese more influence? Perhaps having US troops on the Chinese border would have pushed tensions over into open conflict and led to nuclear war back in the 1960s. I really have no idea. I imagine that for Koreans, this would have been the best outcome.

So what do you think about the possibility that a communist victory could have been the second best outcome, and no reunification as the worst possible outcome? I'm really interested in your opinions - what do you think Korea would look like today if either side had succeeded in unifying the country back in 1951?

[mateomiguel]

is psychological health the real #1 criteria for judging a nation?

I do agree that the constant conflict with the united states has brought north Korea down. I once had the opportunity to have a conversation with someone who had grown up in a communist country that had a capitalistic revolution during his lifetime and did his doctoral thesis on north Korea. He said that the best way to dissolve the regime would be for the US to normalize relations with the north, drop all sanctions, and set up a huge-ass embassy in the capital city. He said that communism can only thrive in a vacuum, basically, and isolation strengthens it. When exposed to other forms of government, any other form, it eventually goes away on its own.

However I think that if North Korea had conquered the South the entire peninsula would serve as a toy for the Kim regime, just like North Korea has done, and everybody would be eating bark, working in fortified bunkers, and dying, instead of just 1/3rd of Koreans.

[gang ah jee]

[thepeel]

The Vietnamese communists and the North Korean communists are different beasts that would have created different outcomes. If all of Korea was as falked up us NK, I don't think any happiness survey would even be allowed.

NK communism is a very strange hybrid of a Nazi'ish fascination with "racial puirty" and out and out racism with socialist economic garbage.

[gang ah jee]

[thepeel]

The revolution needs enemies if it is to be kept up. Those in power have to manufacture enemies if they don't want to face reform. Now, given that I've met my fare share of ajosi's in my day, I feel comfortable in saying that the ultimate ajosi up North would never give up being a real king.

Though you may be right.

[gang ah jee]

[mithridates]

There would also have been an increased Japanese presence in the country, as many Japanese who had lived in Korea for decades and didn't want to go back intended to stay, but were ordered back to Japan by the American military. I suspect that a lot of people would have decided to stay (and would have been tolerated to a certain extent) in order to keep running parts of the country that had nothing to do with conflict between the two, like railways and roads and whatnot.

[mateomiguel]

from what I understand north korea has *all* the natural resources. Of course my understanding comes from hearing thousands of Koreans say the same thing, which is "Korea has no natural resources, we only have our people. So I must study hard." And then questioning them a few times on where the natural resources are. They usually say north korea is rich in natural resources.

so yeh, its like half a country.

What if the south had won? Well, for one, the US would have excuses to put bases in Japan only, not Korea, so we would have less influence in the region. The UN would have probably made Korea into its pet reconstructionist project, and the country would probably have twice as many UNESCO-numbered national treasures as it does now. (quick quiz, what is UNESCO national treasure #1? #2?) Korea would probably embody the phrase "the perpetually mas.turbating hand of capitalism" and would have whipped itself into a frothing nationalistic frenzy that might threaten to destabilize the region. Japan would probably still be wary of revenge strikes, and China would probably still fortify its border, heheh.

[NAVFC]

If the two nations had reunited I suspect Korea would by now be an economic powerhouse. Eitherway you look at it the North was doomed eventually to fail economically because the Korean peninsula is only econmically good as a whole. The North has more of the production and industrial capability where as the South has more of the wet and ariable lands suitable for rice growing, the cash crop for Asian people.

Combine the two and you would have had a economic power house.
Also We would have no nuclear issue, there would be no slave labor camps, we would furthermore have more troops available. Chinas influence would have been curbed. Itd have been better off.

[RACETRAITOR]

Probably the reason that North Korea is sheltered is because they've been in this stalemate for 60 years. South Korean society has also been pretty messed up because of all the paranoia and military rule as well.

I agree with the OP's argument. If North Korea united the entire peninsula, they'd definitely be happier than North Korea is now, but not as happy as South Korea is. Maybe Vietnam is a good example of how it would've gone. They wouldn't have had such a strong enemy and could have developed normal relations.

And of course if the peninsula was united under South Korea early on, this country would come much much closer to rivalling China and Japan's power.

Basically, being divided is dragging both sides down.

[contrarian]

What if South Korea and the Americans had won and unified under a potentially capitalistic potentially democratic nation?

MacAurthur should have been allowed to stop the Chinese entry with nuclear weapons. A cordon sanitaire, if you will, along the Yalu.

Viet Nam is no comparison whatsoever. The North VietNamese were never very communist, but the sure as heck were nationalist. Not long after the war the Vietnamese had to face a Red Chinese invasion.

As for letting the Japanese stay, getting them out of Korea saved their lives. When the Americans had to settle a little dispute in Jeju-do by force it was because they had left the Japs in place.

A unified full speed ahead Korea would be a scary economic powerhouse. They would threaten Japanese and even Chinese hegemony in East Asia.

[bucheon bum]

[Tjames426]

Why is it that everyone thinks it is the fault of the US?? Of course, everything revolves around the USA.

People....

It is not in the interest of the People's Republic of China for the Korean people to unite. It is not in the interest of the Chinese to have the Koreans to unify, and then attempt to resettle in ancient "traditional" lands in Northeast China. The Chinese know that the Koreans are xenophobic and ubernationalistic - especially toward lands in China. It is not in the interest of PR China to produce another "border" issue problem.

The Chinese know full well that the Koreans must kowtow to Beijing. Any Korean Government that does not do so is seen as a "future" problem for China.

I find it funny that Koreans resent the US. I find it funny that Koreans hate the Japanese, who no longer have an interest in Korean unity affairs. I find it curious there is not more angst at the PRChina in South Korea.

It is China who does not want the Koreans to unify. Perhaps in the 1950's to prevent a pro-western government on it's border. Now, it is to prevent another border issue because the Korean people do not know their proper place in Asia.

Chinese is happy with the divided status quo. So is Japan. For the calm of Asia, so does the USA.

[contrarian]

James:

It is time that China is confronted and perhaps cut down to size. If this had been done in 1951 it would not be nessary now. I really don't give a darn if east Asian is tranquil.