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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:33 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| superacidjax wrote: |
| The concern about Mad Cow is a lie. The ONLY people protesting US beef in Korea are beef producers or their affliliates. The beef producers are claiming a fear of Mad Cow, not the general consumer population. |
Wrong. Most people are against it due to safety reasons, not just the beef producers. IMO, importing any kind of meat from any country is a bad idea. I believe the only reason the U.S. decided to do FTA with Korea is because they can sell American beef.
And FTA is NOT free trade. Don't get fooled. As far as I know, FTA between the U.S. and Mexico f**ked up Mexico's economy so far. (The president of Mexico who supported and signed the deal lives in the U.S. now for protection.) |
1) Not one person in the U.S. or Canada has ever died from Mad Cow and the meat is completely safe. Koreans are brainwashed as usual to believe N. American beef is unsafe and of course Korean beef is the best in the world - what a surprise!
2) The Mexican economy is on fire. Take a look at the chart of the Mexican stock market below, does it look like Free Trade is hurting the economy??
3) No, beef is not the only reason the US wants free trade. How about Korean automakers who sell their cars in the US cheaper than in Korean and have a 10 year warranty. And on top of that the Korean government imposes such high taxes on imported cars that only the rich can buy them??
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Korea has it's share of lucrative lopsided trade agreements; something they should think about.
Any US FTA agreement would appear to be lopsided; Korean for-export products are and have been for some time, widely available in the US at very reasonable prices, so an FTA would pretty much mean Korea reciprocating, thus the appearance of it being a one-way street.
Odd they should be so uptight about imports, knowing how much exports have meant to Korea for the last 50 years. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Can you buy Japanese Kobe beef in Korea? |
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KOREAN_MAN
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
You are just plain wrong. You said the former president of Mexico lives in the US for protection presumably because he signed the NAFTA treaty? First of all President Carlos Salinas de Gortari lives in Europe AND Mexico. His brother Enrique was murdered in 2004 in an extortion plot involving members of mexico's federal police force. Nothing to to with a free trade agreement. |
All I know about the guy is from this documentary made by KBS:
http://www.kbs.co.kr/1tv/sisa/kbsspecial/vod/1398914_11686.html
It's in Korean, but you can still watch it by clicking the green 동영상 56k button. (You do need a registered ID though.) A quick search on Wiki says he lives in Europe now and travels to Mexico. But in the video I thought they said he lives in the U.S.
Who wrote that one-page document? A 7th grader??? I know it's a summary page, but geez...
Anyway, I'll say this again. FTA is NOT free trade. In realty, FTA is what is known as "Preferential Trade Agreement". (Yes, it's called "Free Trade Agreement" but hotdogs are not made of dogs either.)
Free trade has no tarrifs or quotas as you said. IMO, you shouldn't even put country-of-origin tags on imported goods. However, that's not what the U.S. and SK are trying to do right now.
Think about it. It's "free trade." How can you negotiate for something like that? You either have free trade or you don't. Negotiations are not necessary or even possible. But what these two countries are trying to do is to have "free trade" on selective items. I do not consider that free trade by nature. For example, if South Korea must import only U.S. beef without tariffs but nothing else, and the U.S. must accept Korean-made automobiles, clothes, computers, cellphones, wheat, fruit, films, and etc., would you call that free trade? It surely is not "fair" trade.
| superacidjax wrote: |
You don't know know what you're talking about regarding Mexico. Just flat out wrong (or perhaps trying to lay some anti-FTA propaganda.) I lived in Texas nearly my entire life. I have anecdotes about the benefits of NAFTA on the Mexican economy. But, how about listening to the experts:
Dr. Albert Fishlow of the of the Center for Latin American Studies at UC Berkeley said, "NAFTA has had enormous beneficial effects on Mexico�s growth and export profile. Since 1994, exports have grown at an average rate of around 20 percent per year and have changed in type from a concentration in petroleum-based products to manufactures. Contrary to expectations, the economic growth stimulated by NAFTA did not reduce the migration of Mexican labor to the U.S. Instead, during the 1990�s, this labor pool was a boon to U.S. production as well as an important release for Mexico from the pressures generated by a persistently high unemployment rate, the dislocation of rural economies and a growing population. While the U.S. economy was booming, this pattern helped to keep down inflation and wages in the U.S. and boosted Mexico�s economy with a massive inflow of dollars. Currently, for the first time in over a century, Mexico enjoys Latin America�s highest level of per capita income."
Did you read that? Mexico has the highest per capita in Latin America for the first time in over a century. Yeah, Free Trade is really hurting Mexico. I could find documentation all day long about NAFTAs benefits. But hopefully you get the point. |
Again, all I know about Mexico and NAFTA is from the video. Mexicans did not seem happy at all about NAFTA in it. Just watch the video. By the way, is Dr. Albert Fishlow American or Mexican?
| superacidjax wrote: |
Your claim that importing meat from other countries is a bad idea is scientifically and logically ignorant. Perhaps people shouldn't travel either. Humans spread more dangerous diseases than food ever would. Perhaps we should just stay locked up in our little villages and never buy anything from other villages. |
Read my second reply below.
| superacidjax wrote: |
There is no mad cow in the US.
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Believe what you will:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1224-06.htm
Last edited by KOREAN_MAN on Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:05 am; edited 3 times in total |
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KOREAN_MAN
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| It sounds like sex should be banned between different countries' citizens too. That spreads killer diseases and it takes years to find out about. Sex between foreigners is even more deadly. |
So you heard about AIDS, eh? Good for ya.  |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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Korea Man wrote:
| Quote: |
| Again, all I know about Mexico and NAFTA is from the video. Mexicans did not seem happy at all about NAFTA in it. Just watch the video. By the way, is Dr. Albert Fishlow American or Mexican? |
Perhaps you missed this from my post above??
That is what is called a beautiful chart!
Of course Free Trade will hurt some people but as a whole it has benefited most. Isn't that part of the stupid confucianism philosophy? As someone wrote earlier, import cheaper rice and re-train the rice farmers. Imported rice is what, 5x cheaper? Do you think that might have an effect on the Korean consumer? Oh I guess not because Koreans don't eat much rice 
As a Canadian we lost some jobs due to NAFTA but the benefits have far outweighted the negatives.
For too long it's been take, take, take by Koreans with no give. I hope the U.S. puts the screws to them. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| JMO wrote: |
| Why is it a bad idea to import meat? Just curious. |
Well, because it can carry various diseases around the globe and kill millions of people. And it can take years to find out whether you're infected or not. Eating meat is very unhealthy in the first place. Eating imported meat makes things even worse.
China bans imported meat from Europe. Australia only imports from NZ. It's not just "senseless" Koreans. |
Ban all trade and travel then is the only logical conclusion. I think you need to be more specific than it kills millions of people. What people? What diseases? give me links and such. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
A quick search on Wiki says he lives in Europe now and travels to Mexico. But in the video I thought they said he lives in the U.S.
...
Again, all I know about Mexico and NAFTA is from the video. Mexicans did not seem happy at all about NAFTA in it. Just watch the video. By the way, is Dr. Albert Fishlow American or Mexican?
Read my second reply below.
| superacidjax wrote: |
There is no mad cow in the US.
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Believe what you will:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1224-06.htm |
Who cares where the former mexican president lives? It is irrelevant. If you want to debate free trade, then I recommend chosing more sources for your information that a Korean TV documentary. Perhaps you could examine economic statistics of GDP, inflation, interest rates, etc. Just spouting propaganda doesn't convince anyone. Look at the numbers. Look at the realities of trade.
Perhaps the US should embargo South Korea. You'd change your mind in a hurry about trade when Samsung, Hyundai and Daewoo go bankrupt and crashes the Korean economy. Trade is the only reason South Korea has become such a success story on the world stage. Same for Japan. And China. And everywhere else. Protectionism, taken to the extreme is no different from the Juche philosophy of North Korea.
Fishlow is American from Berekely.. as you seem to be fond of "progressive" news sources (hence your commondreams.org source on Mad Cow) you should know that Berekely is one of the most liberal "progressive" institutions in the world. Secondly, the facts are indisputable. You can look up the economic numbers. As far as KBS and their documentary. It's easy to find Mexicans that are pissed about Nafta, just as I could make my own documentary that say they're happy about it. The numbers tell the story. Also, look at the source of the documentary. KBS. They're trying to frame NAFTA in a provocative light in order to capitalize on the FTA debate in Korea.
Also, regarding Mad Cow. Is it really an issue? Are people catching Mad Cow and dying from it? How many? Maybe 100 worldwide -- ever? Mad cow isn't killing or infecting Americans and we eat the beef every day. 200 million people eating beef. Zero mad cow. There's just no science to back up the Korean beef farmers claims.
Korean authorities aren't known for their strict practices either, so an article critical of the USDA is pretty ironic considering that the Korean system is so mismanaged.
If Koreans are so worried about safety, then explain the death-wish driving of city buses. Or people eating food that's been improperly stored (i.e. chicken sitting for hours with no refrigeration at a Hof.)
YOU CAN'T EVEN DRINK THE TAP WATER HERE! I don't hear beef farmers complaining to the government about unsafe water. That's a far more dangerous problem than some imaginary "boogie-man" in US beef.
This issue isn't about safety. That's the point you're missing. It's about protectionism. Any freshman economics student can tell you that lowering tarrifs increases economic gains for both sides. And yes, Free Trade Agreements are never going to have "completely free" trade. That's due to different domestic subsidy policies that affect competition with foreign producers. The goal of FTAs is to reduce barriers. Lowering barriers, even if it isn't absolute is ALWAYS going to benefit the average person more than raising barriers. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| superacidjax wrote: |
| It sounds like sex should be banned between different countries' citizens too. That spreads killer diseases and it takes years to find out about. Sex between foreigners is even more deadly. |
So you heard about AIDS, eh? Good for ya. |
In the interest of public health and due to the scientific genius of Korean farmers, sex is now illegal. |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| superacidjax wrote: |
| It sounds like sex should be banned between different countries' citizens too. That spreads killer diseases and it takes years to find out about. Sex between foreigners is even more deadly. |
So you heard about AIDS, eh? Good for ya. |
In the interest of public health and due to the scientific genius of Korean farmers, sex is now illegal. |
Illegal with Korean women, they have to go to Vietnam, China or Cambodia to find someone who will marry them. |
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KOREAN_MAN
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: |
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superacidjax,
I'm interested in what you think of the trade imbalance between the United States and China. Should Nixon ever have gone to China? What do you think about the U.S. trade deficit? |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
superacidjax,
I'm interested in what you think of the trade imbalance between the United States and China. Should Nixon ever have gone to China? What do you think about the U.S. trade deficit? |
Yes, Nixon's China trip has been instrumental to the development of the world economy.
China's economy practices are often unfair and the imbalance is something that the WTO should address. The inequities in trade are based on the US's unwillingness to confront China on their trade practices. However, trade with China, despite it's lopsided configuration is essential to the US economy. The trade deficit is always a contentious issue, but currently the US gains more economically through imports than through exports, so it really isn't hurting the US economy, but if it continues, there will be the potential to harm US competitivness in the future. The bigger problem is as much the deficit, but it's the monetary policy of China. They have artificially fixed the yuan to the US dollar which means that the actual value of goods and services traded differs from the money changing. Chinese monetary policy isn't one of my strongest areas, but the simple version is that US exporters recieve less value for their products than the market would normally provide.
China is a difficult subject, mainly because it's still a pseudo-communist state with a lack of transparency in financial matters. So it's hard for me to fully understand.
Korea, luckily has a fairly liberal economy and as such, trade analysis is fairly easy. That's why I'm encouraged by increasing trade with Korea. Both countries stand to continue a great trade tradition.. I think Koreans and Americans want the same things (as a society.) They want low prices and they want access to each others' goods and services with minimal interference from special interests. The US is just as guilty or protectionism as the Koreans, and I will vocally critisize those on the US side that are acting irrationally.
My desire is to see a world where I can buy African textiles or American beer or Korean plasma TVs anywhere in the world and pay the lowest price. I want developing countries to have unrestricted access to world markets, just as I want developing countries to be able to exchange goods and services freely. As it stands now, there are many products I can buy in Korea or the US simply because of special interest manipulation.
As we all are, I'm still learning about this new paradigm of world economics: Globalization. I think we all have something to learn.. |
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gsxr750r
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Korea_man, I can buy a Samsung Bluray DVD player for $400 in the USA. I have to pay 1,300,000 won here for the same unit -- and it's made here.
Why is that?
Do you suppose something similar is happening with Korean beef? How about rice?
For some hilarious reading about the totally preposterous protectionism of the Korean beef industry, I invite you to look at the following:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/01/23/fun-with-statistics-more-prime-beef/ |
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Fresh Prince
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: The glorious nation of Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Beef dispute...SK vs USA |
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| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| superacidjax wrote: |
| The concern about Mad Cow is a lie. The ONLY people protesting US beef in Korea are beef producers or their affliliates. The beef producers are claiming a fear of Mad Cow, not the general consumer population. |
Wrong. Most people are against it due to safety reasons, not just the beef producers. IMO, importing any kind of meat from any country is a bad idea. I believe the only reason the U.S. decided to do FTA with Korea is because they can sell American beef.
And FTA is NOT free trade. Don't get fooled. As far as I know, FTA between the U.S. and Mexico f**ked up Mexico's economy so far. (The president of Mexico who supported and signed the deal lives in the U.S. now for protection.) |
Have you ever been to Mexico? |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| gsxr750r wrote: |
Korea_man, I can buy a Samsung Bluray DVD player for $400 in the USA. I have to pay 1,300,000 won here for the same unit -- and it's made here.
Why is that? |
It's very simple. It costs more here because of the tarrifs on competing products. Try to buy a Sony version of the same thing.. at least as expensive, probably more. In the US, Samsung has to compete with Sony, etc. While in Korea, they use tarrifs as a means to limit competition.
It's exactly the same with rice. US and Vietnamese rice is much, much cheaper, but due to tarrifs, the prices for import rice are artificially higher. The difference between the pre-tarrif rice price and the korean rice price is a direct ratio of the relatvie competitive disadvantage of the korean rice industry. They raise tarrifs to a level that will allow Korean rice to continue to be cheaper than the imports. |
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