Korean Job Discussion Forums

[wylies99]

I'm not exactly shocked by fraud. But, does this mean we should eliminate all requirements for degrees for any positions?

Remember, it's the education that matters.

[jmbran11]

If you get through the immigration process with a fake degree and transcripts, then I think the likelihood of getting caught later is slim to nil, assuming that he/she has an E-2 (or other appropriate) visa. One of my colleagues at a former position used a similar bought degree. It didn't matter at all. Frankly, if you are clever and brave enough to get good fake papers and submit them to immigration, I think you should meet the minimum requirements for hogwan teaching. And, if you are good enough not to get fired, then clearly the degree requirement isn't really that necessary anyway (other than setting a minimum bar).

[TheUrbanMyth]

[wylies99]

I have a genuine diploma I EARNED through the completion of required classwork.

Anyone who thinks they know more than me about an academic subject, (like English), just because they're "smart" enough to know how to get a fake diploma is SADLY mistaken.

[ThePoet]

First of all, I am proud of the degrees I hold, and I am proud of the work I did to get them. I would never purchase a fake degree.

Secondly, The law is the law, and if Korea makes a law stating we have to paint our butts blue to work here, then we have a decision to make whether we will stay or not. (I wouldn't). Making a moral or ethical stand against a law is only for someone who belongs to that country. Not guests, which most of us are.

Thirdly, someone mentioned that it is the education that should matter, not the degree. While this may be true, I would go one step further and say it is the experience that matters.

As an example, in the late 1980's I lived in the states and there was a crazy irishman sculptor who lived in one of our spare rooms. He loved celtic lore, and he made such beautiful celtic sculptures. He would give them to people as payment for his debts. A few years later, he got a job as a professor at a University in the States as a resident exprt in Celtic lore and sculpting. He did not even have a high school diploma. However, I doubt anyone would question his experience.

Other universities will do this for people who may lack formal university training and education as long as they are considered experts in their field, and I do feel it is a shame that this country would refuse to ever recognize that in someone. If someone without a degree inspired students so much that they learned English and were happy doing so, wouldn't it be great if that person could get an E2 instead of some of the crazy waygookin (see that thread) that come through here and ontribute to ruining our reputation with an admittedly already xenophobic society?

There could be reasons why someone has not earned a degree (lack of funds, no interest or anarchistic views, family discouragement) but might still be a wonderful teacher, but that brings up the old debate whether a teacher is born or made.

Have a good day,

The Poet

[TheUrbanMyth]

[hari seldon]

[Homer]

Pyongshin Sangja,

But of course...because traffic laws are not respected very well here...then its ok to commit fraud with fake credentials to get a job...right.

As Urban said...the double standard is staggering.....

So Pyongshin by that same superb reasoning it means you would have no problem with a foreign worker in your home country entering the country illegally on fake papers and teaching in a school your kids would attend because well..some people in your country evade taxes even if that is against the law so why should the foreigner respect those silly laws...

[Missile Command Kid]

ThePoet, I hear what you're saying about credentials earned through experience rather than knowledge, but do you really think that works with applied linguistics? Do you really think that a person can sit down with a textbook, know all there is to know about the structure of the English language, learn how to teach English, and they should then be allowed to do so? How would you measure this person's ability?

The bachelor's degree is the best way (short of an entrance exam) for immigration to verify who's qualified to teach and who's not. I've met a few people out here with degrees that certainly shouldn't be here, even humanities degrees such as psychology, but overall I think it's a cost-effective system for the Koreans and a fair one for foreigners. Just because you know English, it doesn't mean you can teach it. For the record, this doesn't apply to fields such as music, art, or even creative writing (a subset of English literature at most universities).

[Pyongshin Sangja]

[Homer]

I am making a reference to work visa laws because thats what we have to go on here pyong.

A teacher who comes here on fake credentials is committing fraud. No contest there, no debate.

If he or she gets caught...then thats life man and why should they deserve sympathy.

A B.A. sure is not a garantee that a person is a good teacher but it is a common evaluation criteria and unless you can come up with a better one....

You may think laws are useless here but I disagree. Look at how the Labour Board services have improved over the years. That is just one example.

Just because a person feels that some laws are not respected here that gives them a free pass to break whatever law they like? Sorry but that just does not float man.

[Hater Depot]

[Pyongshin Sangja]

[Paji eh Wong]

In retrospect, I withdraw the comment about Koreans not having any respect for rule of law. That doesn't mean that I think its not true; Koreans really don't give a rats ass about their own laws. It just means that in the context of my position, it doesn't make any sense.

Here's what I should have said. Looking at rule of law in Korea to rule of law back home is an apples and oranges comparison. From a western POV, the vast majority of law at home has some sort of moral, ethical, or utilitarian underpining. It's written in the spirit of the western ideals of justice and fairness. Yes, sometimes it fucks up, but it is successful more often than not.

From a western perspective, Korean jurisprudence is about the control and subjugation of the people. Koreans understand this, and constantly ignore the law.That is why the country is so over regulated and enforcement is so selective. The law in Korea has no basis in western ideals of morality, and I'm not so sure about it being based in Korean morality, whatever that is.

Essentially, that is the complaint that teachers make when they say "WAAAAAH my boss broke the law". They aren't refering to Korean law so much as their misconception that (western, or any) morality underlies it. It is a bit of a silly position.

OTOH, while I've never broken Korean law in this type of case, I think it is also a silly position to blast people for breaking Korean law in a victimless way.


A poster mentioned the hypocrisy of certain users up thread, although you will note that he wasn't brave enough to name names. The feeling is mutual. Here's why.

I greatly enjoyed some of the boarderline hysterical posts up thread. It demonstrated the mercenary nature of a majority of people on this board and in this marketplace. The posters up thread are out to protect their own economic niche by baring entry to others on the job market, and doing so by cheap talk on the internet. This particular barrier on the market makes no sense, in terms of ultilitarian outcomes. A BA in anything is as good for teaching as a HS diploma, and is probably worse than, say an Indian or Kenyan BEd, or even a plain old TESOL.

Essentially, a lot of the posts up thread are motivated people wanting to protect their own interests at the expense of overall good of Korean education. Korean immigration and visa system hurts the quality of teachers that comes to Korea, and by extension, Koreans. This is what I meant by my earlier "false economy" comment. While I do benefit from the barrier, I would welcome the competition from a deregulated market. Hell, it would probably make things a lot more interesting.

I think the charge of self interest is particularly damning if certain posters up thread ever claim to have the best interests of Korea at heart. They don't.

Current Korean immigration law hurts Korea. The end.

[Paji eh Wong]