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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| So, just to be clear, what are "Canadian values"? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| So, just to be clear, what are "Canadian values"? |
This thread isn't about Canada or Canadian values. People associate with Canadians a sense of taking care of one another i.e. universal health care, promoting peace keeping similar to what the Norwegians and Swedes do, a focus on education as Canada has a highly educated populace, and generally I would say Canada is a tolerant, relatively secular society where people respect their differences more or less with definite exceptions... I didn't bring up the term Canadian values. Every country has a different feel to it.
Anyway, I would like to go back to the thread. This is very serious. There is a clash between the Executive and Legislative branches and both conservatives and liberals are in arms over this. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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First, I agree with Kuros that the American-Canadian comparison does not work. And not only with respect to scandals. But with respect to pretty much any other issue out there.
Canada is small; America is the hegemon.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| People associate with Canadians a sense of taking care of one another i.e. universal health care, promoting peace keeping similar to what the Norwegians and Swedes do, a focus on education as Canada has a highly educated populace, and generally I would say Canada is a tolerant, relatively secular society where people respect their differences more or less with definite exceptions... |
You left out "nationalism" and "smug moral superiority" -- especially vis-a-vis America.
And I think your "people-associate-with-Canadians" speech (where did you get this? an international poll? who are these "people?" and how do you know what they think about Canada?) does little more than repeat what Canadians associate with Canadians. Based on the Canadians I met in South Korea and on this board, you also left out "confrontationally antiEstablishmentarianist" and "heavy marijuana usage" as well.
Canada is a small country -- thirty million population, insignificant political economy, and Canadian foreign policy, on its own, touches hardly anyone, anywhere. A few major cities; and many others simply live in the woods. For these reasons, people assume Canada is harmless, as far as world affairs goes, and this generates goodwill abroad. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Canada is a small country -- thirty million population, insignificant political economy, and Canadian foreign policy, on its own, touches hardly anyone, anywhere. A few major cities; and many others simply live in the woods. For these reasons, people assume Canada is harmless, as far as world affairs goes, and this generates goodwill abroad. |
I disagree. i think that the "goodwill" comes from a general apathy toward Canada. Most people outside of Canada rarely think about our neighbors to the north. To hate or love a country or it's people, that country or it's people must evoke some sort of emotion in others. It isn't that people respect or love Canada, it's that those people don't have any emotion with regard to it.
It would be like going to another country ans saying, "I'm from Canada." The other person might say, "Cool. It's a nice place." It isn't that they genuinely love or like Canada, it's just that they hadn't really thought about Canada before and they don't really have an opinion about it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| I disagree. i think that the "goodwill" comes from a general apathy toward Canada. |
Agree. I used "goodwill" for lack of a better term to describe "lack of hostility." |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: what do the yanks on dave's think about this DOJ scandal |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| freethought wrote: |
If my prime minister and his party and staff were embroiled in a scandal and then refused to allow a proper investigation of it, I'm not sure what would happen in Canada, but the outrage, I think, would be FAR more than what I've been seeing in the American media.
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No, it wouldn't. People in the opposition would be outraged, and those in the governing party would protect the tribe.
More specifically, if it was a conservative government, the Toronto Star, G&M and the legions of their minions would all scream about how this is just like BUSH till they were blue in the face. If it were the Liberanos, the National Post and Fraser Institute would protest, and the rest would scream until they are blue in the face about BUSH, and whatever he did that day.
The problems in the Federal Liberal party were known within the party for a long, long time. Everybody had their hand in that one. Nobody cared, as long as all the platitudes that pass for the Liberal ideas were still being accepted as "Canadian values", like we see in adventurer. Nobody in the liberal party cared one little bit. What they did care about was getting Martin's pic taken in front of a Canadian flag 100 times a day. They only started caring when Canadians started caring, and all the precious jobs fleecing the beaten and dumbed down Canadian people were at risk.
Average Canadians, however, find it quite typical of their 'government'. Nobody believes in the government to be anything but self-serving. But at the same time, they are unable to relax their grip on the tit of entitlements the government gives them. It is a perfect road to apathetic stability. |
Oh p[lease. you can try to tie the firingws to investigations if you want but that is dumb. You could use that explanation in almost any situation, as they are US ATTORNEYS. they specifically deal with the government, so at any point in time, the # of US attorneys invovled in explnations that deal with the government is oretty high. Im not a idiot, you a conspriacy nutjob. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
First, I agree with Kuros that the American-Canadian comparison does not work. And not only with respect to scandals. But with respect to pretty much any other issue out there.
Canada is small; America is the hegemon.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| People associate with Canadians a sense of taking care of one another i.e. universal health care, promoting peace keeping similar to what the Norwegians and Swedes do, a focus on education as Canada has a highly educated populace, and generally I would say Canada is a tolerant, relatively secular society where people respect their differences more or less with definite exceptions... |
You left out "nationalism" and "smug moral superiority" -- especially vis-a-vis America.
[That does exist, and it also exists in the U.S. vis-a-vis the whole world. I am sure you'ved lived in the U.S. and heard people say "We have the best country in the world", and "We are the most democratic country".
That is a form of nationalism is it not. Foreigners don't agree with it, but they hear it all the time. Don't forget "Love it or leave it".
And I think your "people-associate-with-Canadians" speech (where did you get this? an international poll? who are these "people?" and how do you know what they think about Canada?) does little more than repeat what Canadians associate with Canadians. Based on the Canadians I met in South Korea and on this board, you also left out "confrontationally antiEstablishmentarianist" and "heavy marijuana usage" as well.
[What I posted I took from my experience, coming from Canadian history with the various political carties, what policies have been implement, and also what the government projects. I don't think most Canadians are anti-establishment. I disagree with that. Unless you mean they are not generally so religious.
Canada is a small country -- thirty million population, insignificant political economy, and Canadian foreign policy, on its own, touches hardly anyone, anywhere. A few major cities; and many others simply live in the woods. For these reasons, people assume Canada is harmless, as far as world affairs goes, and this generates goodwill abroad. |
[I disagree with that. Norway helped start Oslo, and it is a small country.
Canada does have a lot of influence. Israel has a population of 6 million and a similar economy than Canada's. So I don't agree you can simply look at population and make such a sweeping statement. Anyway, again, this thread isn't about Canada as compared to the U.S. A certain poster brought that up. I don't want to stay off topic. Bush shouldn't get off the hook. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Canada is a small country -- thirty million population, insignificant political economy, and Canadian foreign policy, on its own, touches hardly anyone, anywhere. A few major cities; and many others simply live in the woods. For these reasons, people assume Canada is harmless, as far as world affairs goes, and this generates goodwill abroad. |
I disagree. i think that the "goodwill" comes from a general apathy toward Canada. Most people outside of Canada rarely think about our neighbors to the north. To hate or love a country or it's people, that country or it's people must evoke some sort of emotion in others. It isn't that people respect or love Canada, it's that those people don't have any emotion with regard to it.
It would be like going to another country ans saying, "I'm from Canada." The other person might say, "Cool. It's a nice place." It isn't that they genuinely love or like Canada, it's just that they hadn't really thought about Canada before and they don't really have an opinion about it. |
Canada is a country larger than the United States. You mean it has a small population as compared to the United States and half the population of England. Israel has a population of six million and is not viewed as insignificant. Korea has a population of 50 million i.e. 1/6th the size of the U.S., and the U.S. Government for some reason wants a free trade agreement with an insignificant country. This seems like some kind of bitter American nationalism to slam Canada. This topic isn't about American or Canadian nationalism.
Furthermore, every country is significant in my book. Also, so many Americans don't really think any country outside the U.S. significant. You do recall that people from England and the U.S. did the worst among a bunch of Western countries when it comes to knowledge regarding other countries so saying Americans don't really think about Canada doesn't mean anything considering many don't think about other countries much at all and some don't even know certain states on the map. You know this to be true. I don't think it is the peoples' fault. The media could help contribute to their knowledge, but they think it costs money, and they don't care about the people. I do think the media was probably better in the 1970s and 1980s before they closed their foreign bureaus. You do knwo those bureaus are gone. It would affect peoples' knowledge of other places. Anyway, French people are aware of people of Belgium.
Belgium is much smaller than France with a much smaller population.
Should that be a reason to be ignorant of Belgium? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Canada is not "influential" anywhere but the minds of people from Ontario. The influential countries shape the institutions and regimes that govern how the world works. We don't do that. We participate, not plan. We export materials to nations that build things. We hardly build anything ourselves. We export our best and brightest to America and import the second or third tier ranks of "foreign talent" to fill the gap. We talk about peacekeeping, but are 54th worldwide (the 5 dollar bill is a JOKE). I'm actually ashamed to be from Canada when I'm around people who have substantive information about my country, rather than the platitudes we export.
Decades ago, Canada was more powerful. Canada helped shape Bretton Woods, and the world financial system.
Now, she is an insular nation. Only concerned with her actions in relation to America, not in and of themselves. We don't really care if Canadians have a good health system, as long as it is (by the way we measure it) better than "those Americans". Such a pathetic country.
Secretly, Canadians are pissed off that we aren't allowed to play along. We want to live in America, and be American but they won't let us live and work there without immigrating. We feel just like them, but they exclude us from the party so we create all the narratives about how much better we are, to make ourselves feel better for the exclusion. Why don't they like us? Why won't the learn about us? We deserve to be considered! So it goes.
If you want an example of how important our home is, read up on the recent 'chill' in our relations with China. They didn't hesitate to put us in our place. 34 million people, with an economy that damn near fully consists of selling commodities to the USA. And it is often American firms in Canada digging up Canada and "exporting" them to the USA.
Adventurer, you are going to have to take a long hard look at what the Liberals did to Canada. How did we become merely a commodity store for the USA? Where are all the big, successful Canadian global firms (other than RIM and a handful of banks)?
We could have been more, had we not adopted the identity and foreign policy of an NGO. That is how Canadians see their country. An NGO. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Canada is not "influential" anywhere but the minds of people from Ontario. The influential countries shape the institutions and regimes that govern how the world works. We don't do that. We participate, not plan. We export materials to nations that build things. We hardly build anything ourselves. We export our best and brightest to America and import the second or third tier ranks of "foreign talent" to fill the gap. We talk about peacekeeping, but are 54th worldwide (the 5 dollar bill is a JOKE). I'm actually ashamed to be from Canada when I'm around people who have substantive information about my country, rather than the platitudes we export.
Decades ago, Canada was more powerful. Canada helped shape Bretton Woods, and the world financial system.
Now, she is an insular nation. Only concerned with her actions in relation to America, not in and of themselves. We don't really care if Canadians have a good health system, as long as it is (by the way we measure it) better than "those Americans". Such a pathetic country.
[I disagree with that. Where did Axworthy take his cue when he went on his land-mines crusade? Did Chretien exactly follow the U.S. on Israel? No, the U.S. was to the right of him. Did Chretien and Canada go to Iraq? In many cases, yes, Canada does follow the U.S. The last prime minister who strongly went the other way was Diefenbaker, and he was pro-British, and the Americans wanted to get rid of him in a hurry. He actually cried when the Union Jack was no longer the flag. You could argue Canada followed Britain before that. But Canada has contributed whether it was Vimy Ridge or being involved somehow in the world.
Canada was not pathetic when it followed Britannia to Vimy Ridge nor now. I take exception to that. Depending on your definition you could say the U.S. is an insular nation as well.
Secretly, Canadians are pissed off that we aren't allowed to play along. We want to live in America, and be American but they won't let us live and work there without immigrating. We feel just like them, but they exclude us from the party so we create all the narratives about how much better we are, to make ourselves feel better for the exclusion. Why don't they like us? Why won't the learn about us? We deserve to be considered! So it goes.
[That may apply to some, not all. Canadians expected NAFTA to allow them more job access. They felt Mulroney hyped NAFTA just as Bush Senior hyped it in the U.S. That is the perception. I don't know what Canadians you've been talking to. Certainly, not the ones in Ottawa, Montreal, most places in Ontario or Manitoba. Canada needs the U.S. and to some extent so does the U.S. At least, right now. Do Canadians often want to work in the U.S. Yes. What's wrong with that? It is normal. You are acting as if it is some unpatriotic thing to get a job in another country.
If you want an example of how important our home is, read up on the recent 'chill' in our relations with China. They didn't hesitate to put us in our place. 34 million people, with an economy that damn near fully consists of selling commodities to the USA. And it is often American firms in Canada digging up Canada and "exporting" them to the USA.
[That is true. You can partially thank a Conservative named Mulroney.
Trudeau, despite, his flaws was trying to diverse Canada's trade. Mulroney did the opposite and put everything in the American basket.
That isn't what Canadians want. Canadians and Americans don't get what they want out of their governments. So they are both pawns. You just think Americans are pawns that are better off. I think both populations are shafted by their governments.
Adventurer, you are going to have to take a long hard look at what the Liberals did to Canada. How did we become merely a commodity store for the USA? Where are all the big, successful Canadian global firms (other than RIM and a handful of banks)?
[You forget Mulroney. Mulroney was a Conservative. He played a large role in this. Not every Conservative was John Diefenbaker anymore than every Liberal was Lester B. Pearson. You like to generalize everything to fit some kind of vague thing when it comes to Liberals and Conservatives.
Canada isn't America. The Liberals and Conservatives often overlap much more.
We could have been more, had we not adopted the identity and foreign policy of an NGO. That is how Canadians see their country. An NGO. |
You mean that is how you perceive it. I don't know many Canadians who perceive Canada that way. Anyway, what do you want for Canada?
Do you prefer the way things are run in the U.S. Maybe others are clear on your politics, but I am not. Do you want Canada to simply be a mirror of the U.S. or vice versa? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want Canadians to be nationalistic like whoever or whatever like wherever. I would like Canada to, ohh, lower taxes about 40%, for one. Also, I would very much like Canadians, and specifically the Canadian media and "big-ed" to leave the nationalistic mudslinging to die. It is getting old. The identity of "not American" is pathetic. And trying to manufacture a new identity of "whatever the Liberal Party says" is even more stupid. National identity will be born from the ground up, not the CRTC down. A top down culture is a fake culture. A bottom up culture is authentic.
If what Canadians thought about their country in any way matched the reality of the county, maybe Canadians wouldn't be so damn insufferable to be around when in other nations.
When I needed knee surgery, I went to Montana. When my brother needed a scan of his head ASAP we were told to wait 8 months. He flew to Montana that night. When my very cancer prone family gets another bout of Cancer, we go to America. And we are solidly middle class. We just can not afford to wait for months to have our health restored.
I have personal experience as to how much of a wash the Canadian heath system is, and yet you seem to hold it up as some mythical object.
And yes, you will reply about uninsured Americans, because that is what Canadians are programmed to do. There are only two systems in the world, in the eyes of the Canadian. The Canadian and the American. All we have to do is be better (as we define it) than "those Americans" and we could care less about real outcomes.
The country should try to compete with the world. Not sell the world the stuff it needs to compete with eachother. We should seek specific outcomes of policy, not the one outcome of "better than America". |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Also, so many Americans don't really think any country outside the U.S. significant. |
No, no, no. Canada does not rank among significant countries in world affairs. This does not mean that Canada is absolutely insignificant (or invalid, etc.) or that we say that no one besides the United States is significant. (Absurd allegation, given the prominence of area studies in nearly each and every American university.)
To cite the example that always gets everyone fighting with each other here, but the clearest example nonetheless: no one, or hardly anyone, noted Canada's entry into the Second World War. But America's entry decided matters.
Another example: if Canada pulled out of NATO tomorrow, NATO would still stand as is; if America pulled out of NATO tomorrow, NATO would cease to exist that day.
Third example: I have heard much talk of expanding the UN Security Council's permanent membership to include other significant world actors: Germany, Japan, India, Brazil, and perhaps one or two others' names have come up. Do you think too many people see Canada as an obvious or even viable choice? Why do you think that is?
Canadians tend to think way too highly of Canada's influence in world affairs. You speak English and happen to exist on America's northern border. You are, from what I have seen, inveterately antagonistic towards the United States -- so you constantly contrast yourselves with us (see any number of posters here, excepting On the Other Hand, Urban Myth, BJWD, and a small handful of others, like Bulsajo -- none of whom babble on as nationalists here, citing the 1812 War and a million other "NotAmerican" annoyances, in stark contrast to so many other Canadians). But that is about all you contribute to world affairs. That and beflagged backpacks... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
I don't want Canadians to be nationalistic like whoever or whatever like wherever. I would like Canada to, ohh, lower taxes about 40%, for one. Also, I would very much like Canadians, and specifically the Canadian media and "big-ed" to leave the nationalistic mudslinging to die. It is getting old. The identity of "not American" is pathetic. And trying to manufacture a new identity of "whatever the Liberal Party says" is even more stupid. National identity will be born from the ground up, not the CRTC down. A top down culture is a fake culture. A bottom up culture is authentic.
If what Canadians thought about their country in any way matched the reality of the county, maybe Canadians wouldn't be so damn insufferable to be around when in other nations.
When I needed knee surgery, I went to Montana. When my brother needed a scan of his head ASAP we were told to wait 8 months. He flew to Montana that night. When my very cancer prone family gets another bout of Cancer, we go to America. And we are solidly middle class. We just can not afford to wait for months to have our health restored.
I have personal experience as to how much of a wash the Canadian heath system is, and yet you seem to hold it up as some mythical object.
And yes, you will reply about uninsured Americans, because that is what Canadians are programmed to do. There are only two systems in the world, in the eyes of the Canadian. The Canadian and the American. All we have to do is be better (as we define it) than "those Americans" and we could care less about real outcomes.
The country should try to compete with the world. Not sell the world the stuff it needs to compete with eachother. We should seek specific outcomes of policy, not the one outcome of "better than America". |
Frankly, many Canadians would like their government to take a nationalist stance. And that means more than what you are saying of being unAmerican as you stated. Canadians are Americans just as Americans are Americans. Americans don't have a monopoly over the North American identity. Canada and America were both colonies of Great Britain. However, they are not Americans in the same sense as people from below the 49th Parallel. Everyone knows that. It is like Scottish people and people from England are similar. They are from the British Isles, but they are both different. People don't want to be generalized as being the same.
Back to nationalism, if the U.S. has a right to exert nationalism why not Canada? Why can't there be a Canadian Prime Minister pushing to get say 1/3rd of Canadian trade with countries other than those with Mexico and the U.S. including countries in Asia, South America, and the Middle East.
I think it would be good to see a Canadian government that invests in more technology just as the Japanese do and also to build a larger army.
Canada shouldn't have to apologize for being nationalistic while maintaining its friendship with the U.S. I somehow feel the U.S. has many in the government who think Canada should be pressured to follow the U.S. much like Britain did. Canada doesn't need to follow another empire into dangerous wars.
As far as the health care system, it has been underfunded. As far as when I was in the U.S. and wanted surgery, I simply couldn't get it.
After I quit my teaching job and working in sales, I just couldn't get the 4,000 bucks to get it done. Had I been in Canada, I would have perhaps waited, but it would have been done. The Canadian system can improve but so can the U.S. system which is often inaccessible to those who don't have health insurance or the financial resources for it. Plenty also die in the U.S., because they don't have access. Even doctors say that. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Alright, this is my last response and then I agree to disagree. But, I will say that you have a very bad habit of insinuating my positions as simply being the opposite of yours.
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Frankly, many Canadians would like their government to take a nationalist stance. |
We are products of our culture. Of course they want their government to be more nationalistic. We are taught to be nationalistic. Besides, just because they want it doesn't mean it is good.
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And that means more than what you are saying of being unAmerican as you stated. Canadians are Americans just as Americans are Americans. Americans don't have a monopoly over the North American identity. Canada and America were both colonies of Great Britain. However, they are not Americans in the same sense as people from below the 49th Parallel. Everyone knows that. It is like Scottish people and people from England are similar. They are from the British Isles, but they are both different. People don't want to be generalized as being the same. |
I don't generalize them as being the same. But, we are more similar to the USA than any other nation with the possible exception of Oz. I would like Canadians to develop their own modern culture, independent of the Libs.
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Back to nationalism, if the U.S. has a right to exert nationalism why not Canada? |
You are suggesting that because I dislike Canadian nationalism I must like American nationalism? No. If religion is the opiate of the masses, nationalism is the opiate of the ultra dumb.
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Why can't there be a Canadian Prime Minister pushing to get say 1/3rd of Canadian trade with countries other than those with Mexico and the U.S. including countries in Asia, South America, and the Middle East. |
I don't know. I would hope that the FTA with India is passed. The first think you learn in finance classes is diversify, diversify, diversify.
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I think it would be good to see a Canadian government that invests in more technology just as the Japanese do and also to build a larger army. |
"Investing" in technology is for the market. If a government does it, it will be politically determined and likely not viable. There will be exceptions, of course (velcro from Nasa etc). But I would like the government to lower taxes and encourage investment from Canadians in technology.
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Canada shouldn't have to apologize for being nationalistic while maintaining its friendship with the U.S. I somehow feel the U.S. has many in the government who think Canada should be pressured to follow the U.S. much like Britain did. Canada doesn't need to follow another empire into dangerous wars. |
I don't know how to reply. Canada can't apologize as it is a country. Canadians don't need to apologize for being nationalistic. It just makes them annoying and delusional.
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I think Gopher has had a more balanced post in regards to this. He said Canada is a significant country, but it is not a heavy weight. |
I think the recent China snub demonstrated that the balance has shifted. We are an insignificant member of a larger pole. We are on Team America. But we 'ride the pine'. And I'm fine with that. I don't care if Canada is powerful or not. There isn't a nationalistic bone in my body.
Canada once was powerful, but it is a bigger, more diverse world now. We don't have to be powerful. Really, we have nothing to offer. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: |
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I said:
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| And yes, you will reply about uninsured Americans, because that is what Canadians are programmed to do. There are only two systems in the world, in the eyes of the Canadian. The Canadian and the American. All we have to do is be better (as we define it) than "those Americans" and we could care less about real outcomes. |
You replied:
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| The Canadian system can improve but so can the U.S. system which is often inaccessible to those who don't have health insurance or the financial resources for it. Plenty also die in the U.S., because they don't have access. Even doctors say that. |
Ok. Honesty time. You don't read other peoples posts, right? You glance at them, and then assume their position and then respond to your assumption. Right? |
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