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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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 Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Hello, Flakfizer!
First of all I think you might be confusing atheism and nihilism. Common mistake, so that's ok. Secondly, morality based on what you think it is that God wants you to do can be good - it seems to be good for otis, and indeed for a lot of people who lack self-control or otherwise have difficulty thinking through the consequences of their actions. For example, otis here seems to be having second thoughts about buying a strip club because he's worried what God will think about it. Of course, if he were to think things through a bit more carefully, his misgivings might be based more on the real-world consequences.
For example, he might not feel comfortable with investing his money in a seedy business with probable connections with prostitution and the drug trade. He might worry about the unpredictability of the employees and clientele. He might think twice about his wife and mother of his child working at a titty bar. But otis is a simple man, and worrying that he might go to hell saves him a lot of time. In this way I think you could definitely argue that God-based morality is very helpful for a lot of people who lack the ability to determine moral courses of action for themselves. Of course, I would also argue that once one has decided that God is the source of all morality, one will be perfectly happy to commit atrocities if one thinks that is what God wants. We have this happening on a daily basis in some parts of the world, as I'm sure you know. |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
Hello, Flakfizer!
First of all I think you might be confusing atheism and nihilism. Common mistake, so that's ok. Secondly, morality based on what you think it is that God wants you to do can be good - it seems to be good for otis, and indeed for a lot of people who lack self-control or otherwise have difficulty thinking through the consequences of their actions. For example, otis here seems to be having second thoughts about buying a strip club because he's worried what God will think about it. Of course, if he were to think things through a bit more carefully, his misgivings might be based more on the real-world consequences.
For example, he might not feel comfortable with investing his money in a seedy business with probable connections with prostitution and the drug trade. He might worry about the unpredictability of the employees and clientele. He might think twice about his wife and mother of his child working at a titty bar. But otis is a simple man, and worrying that he might go to hell saves him a lot of time. In this way I think you could definitely argue that God-based morality is very helpful for a lot of people who lack the ability to determine moral courses of action for themselves. Of course, I would also argue that once one has decided that God is the source of all morality, one will be perfectly happy to commit atrocities if one thinks that is what God wants. We have this happening on a daily basis in some parts of the world, as I'm sure you know. |
My wife's not going to work in the bar. The bar opens at five pm and closes at 2 am.
She's going to go in during the day to check the inventory and the bank.
There's already a woman in place who works the bar.
This is a can't miss. You've got three poker machines. That's cash.
You've got a jukebox that plays the entire time funded by the customers. I keep half that.
Two pool tables. I keep half that.
And you really don't have to pay the strippers. That's the beauty. This is the way it's set up: They have to sell fourteen drinks in order to get sixty dollars. Then they get their tips.
Drinks go for six bucks a pop.
That's eighty four bucks in drinks per girl.
I've been thinking hard about this. I'm seeing my accountant in a week to get the taxes done.
Then I'm going to make guy an offer. If he goes for it fine. If he doesn't...well, that's ok, too.
But this crap has money written all over it. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Otis owning a strip club....I can believe it. It sounds right up his alley. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Hello, Otis!
Why is the seller selling?
I find it hard to imagine that he is chauvinistic enough to boink the girls but submissive enough to say "yes, dear" when his wife asks him to sell.
Is it possible that there is something you should know which the seller is not telling you?
Hello, Flakfizer!
Maybe "selflessness" was not the right word.
I understand that the commandment does not entail self-denial.
But I still question that the commandment is even possible.
Does the notion that "anything goes" follow logically from Evolution?
And were the Evolutionists that you have known wild and carefree hedonists who frequent places like the place that Otis is describing?
Last edited by tomato on Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Might be going to hell |
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| otis wrote: |
| His wife wants him to sell the place because he keeps boinking the girls. |
And she's still with him?
Is she korean? |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
Hello, Otis!
Hello, Flakfizer!
Maybe "selflessness" was not the right word.
I understand that the commandment does not entail self-denial.
But I still question that the commandment is even possible.
Does the notion that "anything goes" follow logically from Evolution?
And were the Evolutionists that you have known wild and carefree hedonists who frequent places like the place that Otis is describing? |
I will try to answer both you GAJ the best I can without going into things too deeply because this could well turn into a very long thread if you, I and GAJ keep answering/questioning each other. I think that would actually be fun and interesting, but I'm kind of tired of the computer and I'm sure others would join in and it would be impossibly confusing to deal with each and every point of view. Perhaps a real live chat would be far more enjoyable? I'm game.
Anyway, GAJ thinks I may be confusing nihilism and atheism and you ask me if I think that "anything goes" follows logically from evolution (which I notice you capitalizing now). To answer you both somewhat, I would say that I do not confuse atheism with nihilism or any philosophy or moral philosophy. I don't really see atheism as a philosophy, but I do think it would lead logically to some philosophies and away from others.
As for your questions, I'm going to use "atheists" instead of "evolutionists" because there are some who believe that Man evolved from lower life forms but still believe in a God that has something to do with morality. I'm guessing your point is about people who don't believe morality has anything to do with God. Now, do the people I know who believe thusly live like "wild and carefree hedonists?" No, but I don't think they have any moral reason not to. There are other reasons not to, like laws and fear of human punishment. One doesn't need to believe in a God that will judge us to see that stealing a $1,000 is not worth losing a year of life in prison. We have such laws and punishments for the very reason that most people don't have sufficient reason to act in a morally upright way. Let me now turn to GAJ's response to Otis's situation:
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| For example, he might not feel comfortable with investing his money in a seedy business with probable connections with prostitution and the drug trade. He might worry about the unpredictability of the employees and clientele. He might think twice about his wife and mother of his child working at a titty bar. |
What is a "seedy" business? Would he feel uncomfortable due to moral concerns or fear of losing money? What's wrong with prostitution and drugs? In the U.S., one might fear punishment due to the illegality of these, but I think some countries have already determined that both should be legal. So, is Otis to shun these because they are immoral, or because they are illegal in his country and he fears punishment? I'm not sure what was meant about the unpredictability comment-sounds like the fear of a bad business situation, nothing more. GAJ later goes on to write:
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| ...God-based morality is very helpful for a lot of people who lack the ability to determine moral courses of action for themselves. |
I am one such person. I would ask, how does one determine moral courses of action for themselves? Is there a standard way to do so? Kant's categorical imperative? (I guess that wouldn't really be determining for one's self though, would it?). If people determine their "moral course of action for themselves," won't they do it in different ways and come to different conclusions? I think that is what is meant when some use the phrase "anything goes." If there is no absolute standard, then there are as many standards as there are human beings and thus, there is really no standard at all. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| otis wrote: |
| gang ah jee wrote: |
Hello, Flakfizer!
First of all I think you might be confusing atheism and nihilism. Common mistake, so that's ok. Secondly, morality based on what you think it is that God wants you to do can be good - it seems to be good for otis, and indeed for a lot of people who lack self-control or otherwise have difficulty thinking through the consequences of their actions. For example, otis here seems to be having second thoughts about buying a strip club because he's worried what God will think about it. Of course, if he were to think things through a bit more carefully, his misgivings might be based more on the real-world consequences.
For example, he might not feel comfortable with investing his money in a seedy business with probable connections with prostitution and the drug trade. He might worry about the unpredictability of the employees and clientele. He might think twice about his wife and mother of his child working at a titty bar. But otis is a simple man, and worrying that he might go to hell saves him a lot of time. In this way I think you could definitely argue that God-based morality is very helpful for a lot of people who lack the ability to determine moral courses of action for themselves. Of course, I would also argue that once one has decided that God is the source of all morality, one will be perfectly happy to commit atrocities if one thinks that is what God wants. We have this happening on a daily basis in some parts of the world, as I'm sure you know. |
My wife's not going to work in the bar. The bar opens at five pm and closes at 2 am.
She's going to go in during the day to check the inventory and the bank.
There's already a woman in place who works the bar.
This is a can't miss. You've got three poker machines. That's cash.
You've got a jukebox that plays the entire time funded by the customers. I keep half that.
Two pool tables. I keep half that.
And you really don't have to pay the strippers. That's the beauty. This is the way it's set up: They have to sell fourteen drinks in order to get sixty dollars. Then they get their tips.
Drinks go for six bucks a pop.
That's eighty four bucks in drinks per girl.
I've been thinking hard about this. I'm seeing my accountant in a week to get the taxes done.
Then I'm going to make guy an offer. If he goes for it fine. If he doesn't...well, that's ok, too.
But this crap has money written all over it. |
Did you make a decision regarding buying it?
Maybe God is trying to stop you from doing something you might regret one day. . . (even if you don't believe in God).
Ultimately money will not make you happy and give you peace (just look at hollywood). The draw of money is so appealing, but you will realize how little joy it can bring in the long run if you are not happy in the other aspects of your lifestyle.
As someone said, peddling flesh is low . . . . imagine if someone you loved had a life so messed up that they had to go into that type of work (or at least thought that type of life was acceptable and took it up). . .
Its better to get by in life with integrity and not be rich that lower oneself to degrading and immoral ways that take advantage of other people in order to make a few extra dollars. Sure, some people make some money as they work there, but whether someone has a religous belief or not, this is not an upstanding lifestyle. |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Xian wrote: |
| otis wrote: |
| gang ah jee wrote: |
Hello, Flakfizer!
First of all I think you might be confusing atheism and nihilism. Common mistake, so that's ok. Secondly, morality based on what you think it is that God wants you to do can be good - it seems to be good for otis, and indeed for a lot of people who lack self-control or otherwise have difficulty thinking through the consequences of their actions. For example, otis here seems to be having second thoughts about buying a strip club because he's worried what God will think about it. Of course, if he were to think things through a bit more carefully, his misgivings might be based more on the real-world consequences.
For example, he might not feel comfortable with investing his money in a seedy business with probable connections with prostitution and the drug trade. He might worry about the unpredictability of the employees and clientele. He might think twice about his wife and mother of his child working at a titty bar. But otis is a simple man, and worrying that he might go to hell saves him a lot of time. In this way I think you could definitely argue that God-based morality is very helpful for a lot of people who lack the ability to determine moral courses of action for themselves. Of course, I would also argue that once one has decided that God is the source of all morality, one will be perfectly happy to commit atrocities if one thinks that is what God wants. We have this happening on a daily basis in some parts of the world, as I'm sure you know. |
My wife's not going to work in the bar. The bar opens at five pm and closes at 2 am.
She's going to go in during the day to check the inventory and the bank.
There's already a woman in place who works the bar.
This is a can't miss. You've got three poker machines. That's cash.
You've got a jukebox that plays the entire time funded by the customers. I keep half that.
Two pool tables. I keep half that.
And you really don't have to pay the strippers. That's the beauty. This is the way it's set up: They have to sell fourteen drinks in order to get sixty dollars. Then they get their tips.
Drinks go for six bucks a pop.
That's eighty four bucks in drinks per girl.
I've been thinking hard about this. I'm seeing my accountant in a week to get the taxes done.
Then I'm going to make guy an offer. If he goes for it fine. If he doesn't...well, that's ok, too.
But this crap has money written all over it. |
Did you make a decision regarding buying it?
Maybe God is trying to stop you from doing something you might regret one day. . . (even if you don't believe in God).
Ultimately money will not make you happy and give you peace (just look at hollywood). The draw of money is so appealing, but you will realize how little joy it can bring in the long run if you are not happy in the other aspects of your lifestyle.
As someone said, peddling flesh is low . . . . imagine if someone you loved had a life so messed up that they had to go into that type of work (or at least thought that type of life was acceptable and took it up). . .
Its better to get by in life with integrity and not be rich that lower oneself to degrading and immoral ways that take advantage of other people in order to make a few extra dollars. Sure, some people make some money as they work there, but whether someone has a religous belief or not, this is not an upstanding lifestyle. |
Right now, I'm in the process of playing hardball. The guy wants sixty, and I'm offering forty-five. He won't budge, and I won't budge.
But I'm kind of leaning your way. I know that they busted one of the girls who worked their a few years back for distributing crack cocaine.
Sounds harsh. But I'm sure that's par for the course when dealing with most bars in America. We are so drug-infested as a nation. |
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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hell, shmell. That's all just stone-age boogey-man threats to keep people from being jerks, i bet. Except for the people we work with here on earth, there is no hell. Once you die, you're not Otis anymore, I'm not Pete--we're all just electricity, at best. May as well die rich! If you're cool with being a pimp, go on and make your money, dude. Who knows, you might even be one of those rare strip club owners who's not a crack-head rapist. God Knows, the world needs more of them!
Whattaya want, a &%$ing merit badge? |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| swetepete wrote: |
Hell, shmell. That's all just stone-age boogey-man threats to keep people from being jerks, i bet. Except for the people we work with here on earth, there is no hell. Once you die, you're not Otis anymore, I'm not Pete--we're all just electricity, at best. May as well die rich! If you're cool with being a pimp, go on and make your money, dude. Who knows, you might even be one of those rare strip club owners who's not a crack-head rapist. God Knows, the world needs more of them!
Whattaya want, a &%$ing merit badge? |
Of course, we'll all be electricity, how did we miss it. . . . . 
Anyway, you put in such glamorous terms . . . OP, doesn't this life of hard drugs, possible police issues, pimps, prostitution sound so lovely? . . . I wanted to be a fireman when I was growing up
Hey OP, I wonder what the owner of this bar hasn't told you. . . Do you suppose that there are things you are not being told? |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Otis is a scumbag. How anyone can talk about owning a strip club and then judge others for their actions is beyond me. |
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MissSeoul
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere in America
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Might be going to hell |
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| otis wrote: |
Money is money. But I don't know how I'll explain it to God when I die. |
Well, you only live this life and let your ghost take care the next life after you die, I am too busy to care what my own ghost is going to do in another life  |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| Otis is a scumbag. How anyone can talk about owning a strip club and then judge others for their actions is beyond me. |
That's right, my little friend. I am a judge!
Furthermore, I find you guilty of crimes against the people!
Sentence?
You shall be cornholed and shot at the break of dawn.
There is good news.
We are going to cornhole you first. After all, we are not savages. |
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Cerebroden
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I say buy the place, and just make some of the strippers dress as catholic school girls and "give confession"
if that don't work out, well...I guess I'll be seeing you in the next life.  |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Otis, whilst munching on his beloved cheeseburger and freedom fries, wrote: |
And you really don't have to pay the strippers. That's the beauty. This is the way it's set up: They have to sell fourteen drinks in order to get sixty dollars. Then they get their tips.
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Miserable wages buddy.
If there is such a thing as god - which of course there isn't - it will send you to the 7th, yes the SEVENTH, layer of Hades for paying people such a miserable salary.
The thing is though....there's no such thing as a miserable salary if people are prepared to work for it, right? You must live in an extremely low wages region if you believe birds are gonna work for that.
Might be worth your while if you moved your finger a little nearer the reality button. |
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