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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Remind me again what violence occurred in the US as a result of the Mohammad cartoon. I lose track of these things while I'm stuck here.
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Well I guess since there was no violence in the US then all the violence that muslims caused in other parts of the world can just be ignored...Again Mr. huffy please explain why the Muslims go on violent rampages but the Christians are not???
(ps. in the US there were editors who were fired for printing those terrible cartoons....) |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
| since there was no violence in the US then all the violence that muslims caused in other parts of the world can just be ignored... |
Yes. Almost all of the violence occurred in Muslim countries where the people have few freedoms and few outlets to express their displeasures. They aren't allowed to protest against their own government, so they take it out on the Western scapegoats. Their chains aren't the chains of Islam, but rather the chains of oppressive third world dictatorships. The other source of displeasure was in European ghettos. Like I've said before, Europe is not an immigration savvy land and they have no business breaking in with Immigration 401.
What do these two situations have to do with Muslims in America?
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| (ps. in the US there were editors who were fired for printing those terrible cartoons....) |
cite please? I can find one instance of an editor in the US being fired - at the U of Illinois. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| What do these two situations have to do with Muslims in America? |
That is a rather naked attempt to steer the discussion in your direction. This is the second time you have done this (the other time being when we were off topic and I wanted to respect the OP, but now I'm the op, so..). So, Yes. You are right. The muslims in America are, for many reasons, much more emotionally stable than those in Europe.
When the subject of muslims doing crazy stuff comes up, typically the only thing a good multicult follower can do is point to the crazy American Christians. In this case, I have made the example for you. Christian American vs Muslim European reactions to rude depictions to their religious symbols. This is the dichotomy that is always made, and I want it to be made NOW.
So, back to my question. Why is the reaction so astonishingly different? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
So, back to my question. Why is the reaction so astonishingly different? |
http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=60
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While many European Muslims have become successful in their new homes, many others do not speak their host country's language well, if at all, and are often jobless and poor. Moreover, segregation, whether by choice or necessity, is common, with large numbers of Muslims living in ghettos where the crime and poverty rates are high.
For Europeans, too, Muslim immigration poses special challenges. Unlike the United States � a land of immigrants with no dominant ethnic group � most nations in Europe are built around a population base with a common ethnicity. Moreover, these countries possess deep historical, cultural, religious and linguistic traditions. Injecting hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions, of people who look, speak and act differently into these settings often makes for a difficult social fit. |
The question I have is, what does the Muslim reaction in the Middle East and Europe have to do with Muslims in America? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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So, your answer is to deflect (the assumption is that the poor ones went crazy but the middle class ones not, which is questionable, to say the least. As Sam Harris says, "how many middle class engineers have to fly into a building for other causes than poverty to be looked at" -quote from memory-) but use Pew to arrive at the same conclusions as I have: The muslims are not assimilating in Europe.
And it has nothing to do with America.. Not everything is about America. I'm not even American.
Anyways, I don't want to get into a long discussion on this. I just wanted to make the connection the mulicults make (American Christian vs. European muslim). |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| So, your answer is to deflect (the assumption is that the poor ones went crazy but the middle class ones not, which is questionable, to say the least. As Sam Harris says, "how many middle class engineers have to fly into a building for other causes than poverty to be looked at" -quote from memory-) |
Well, given that we probably don't even know who the real hijackers were, he's relying an awful lot on conjecture.
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| but use Pew to arrive at the same conclusions as I have: The muslims are not assimilating in Europe. |
Very well. I've conceded that Europe has probably made a mistake attempting to import third-world Muslims. They're not a starter immigration group. Now you can stop using them as a benchmark of Islamic "assimilation."
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| And it has nothing to do with America.. Not everything is about America. I'm not even American. |
America & Canada are in the same boat. Why should we be concerned about Europe's failed immigration policies? The situation in NA is completely different than the situation in Europe.
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| Anyways, I don't want to get into a long discussion on this. I just wanted to make the connection the mulicults make (American Christian vs. European muslim). |
Okay, so American Christians are more tolerant than European Muslims. That American and Canadian Muslims haven't risen up in a violent frenzy would seem to indicate that Islam isn't the root of the problem. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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The hotel and the gallery were overrun Thursday with angry phone calls and e-mails about the exhibit. Semler said the calls included death threats over the work of artist Cosimo Cavallaro, who was described as disappointed by the decision to cancel the display.
"In this situation, the hotel couldn't continue to be supportive because of a fear for their own safety," Semler said.
[Well, what about the above. Don't think death threats is a pacific reaction to the chocolate sculpture? Granted, I haven't heard of any Catholics in America engaging in violence over religious reasons only Protestant Evangelical types. Still, they are death threats..... What about that? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I find your glib dismissal of Harris strange. Bin Laden comes from one of the most wealthy families in Saudi. In fact, Saudi, where basically nobody works cause they are all so rich, is the mecca of islamic nutzos. Huff, the correlation between terrorist activity and wealth may actually run the opposite direction than you would want.
And about the US and Canada.. Sure, we aren't in the same situation. Or, there just aren't enough of them yet. The 'critical mass', as it is called. But I'm sure you remember the group of men from a "broad strata of Canadian society" (as the leftist Toronto Star called them) who wanted to cut off the head of Steve Harper?
Either way, I would not be so sure that you don't have similar problem in the US. Sudden Jihad Syndrome is quite frequent. The media downplays it. The more muslims who immigrate, the more confident they will feel.
9/11 was the coming out party for islam. We have to recognize this. The old models of "tolerance" and "diversity" do not work with such an aggressive religion. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
Death threats, heh?  What happened to our docile tolerant X-tians. (cue BJWD telling us how much he hates all religions). |
I do dislike all religions. I dislike islam more than others. I'm all about ranks. Had I lived in Europe 1000 years ago (or even 100 years ago) I would have spend my time fussing about the Christians. When I move to Miami I'll likely be faced with crazy Christian types and my posting will reflect this as well. In fact, when I was surrounded by Christians I spend my time criticizing them). I apply the same rules to both. I'm a man of equality of criticism. No kid gloves.
So, we have a death threat so far. Fair enough. Are we in 'cartoon jihad' territory? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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This, would be my major motivation these days. And Gophers too, if I read him right.
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Much campus censorship rests on philosophical underpinnings that go back to social theorist Herbert Marcuse, a hero to sixties radicals. Marcuse argued that traditional tolerance is repressive�it wards off reform by making the status quo . . . well, tolerable. Marcuse favored intolerance of established and conservative views, with tolerance offered only to the opinions of the oppressed, radicals, subversives, and other outsiders. Indoctrination of students and �deeply pervasive� censorship of others would be necessary, starting on the campuses and fanning out from there.
By the late 1980s, many of the double standards that Marcuse called for were in place in academe. Marcuse�s candor was missing, but everyone knew that speakers, student newspapers, and professors on the right could (make that should) receive different treatment from those on the left. The officially oppressed�designated race and gender groups�knew that they weren�t subject to the standards and rules set for other students. |
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_free_speech.html
This kind of thinking is going to screw us in the long run. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| I find your glib dismissal of Harris strange. Bin Laden comes from one of the most wealthy families in Saudi. In fact, Saudi, where basically nobody works cause they are all so rich, is the mecca of islamic nutzos. Huff, the correlation between terrorist activity and wealth may actually run the opposite direction than you would want. |
Let's see
-Do we really know who the hijackers really were?
-Has bin Laden actually laid his life down for the cause?
-I didn't mention poverty except wrt Europe (and that was just in the Pew quote, IIRC). It obviously takes money to plan and execute a terrorist attack. So it's really a moot point.
-I don't believe every Saudi is drowning in money. The GDP per capita is under $14,000 and the unemployment rate is 13%. I don't have any numbers for income inequality right now, but I reckon they are high.
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| And about the US and Canada.. Sure, we aren't in the same situation. Or, there just aren't enough of them yet. The 'critical mass', as it is called. But I'm sure you remember the group of men from a "broad strata of Canadian society" (as the leftist Toronto Star called them) who wanted to cut off the head of Steve Harper? |
What's "critical mass"? Isn't the percent of Muslims as high or higher in the US/Canada then it is in Europe?
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Either way, I would not be so sure that you don't have similar problem in the US. Sudden Jihad Syndrome is quite frequent. The media downplays it. The more muslims who immigrate, the more confident they will feel.
9/11 was the coming out party for islam. We have to recognize this. The old models of "tolerance" and "diversity" do not work with such an aggressive religion. |
Do you have more proof than a "media coverup?" You keep crying "wolf" but you can only grasp at ephemeral straws to draw the connection between Islam and violence. The situation is analogous to WWII. I'm sure there were some Japanese and German spies in America, but the reaction was over done and irrational. Much like your reaction to Islam. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| When I move to Miami I'll likely be faced with crazy Christian types and my posting will reflect this as well. |
No, you'll be faced with anti-Castro Cuban boat people. I'm awaiting your reaction. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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re: the Cubans, I'm more anti-communist than against islam.. Also, I'm sorta marrying into a family of them (the step-father to be is an old-school exile). It will be interesting, I'm sure. Castro is a bastard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_in_Western_Europe
Yeah, it is wiki, but the stats are from the economist. France is 7%.
So, you suggest no link between islam and violence? A man running through a shopping mall in Utah shouting Allah Allah is nothing eh? The continuing riots in France (with obligatory chants of allah allah).. Southern Thailand? The Philippines? The Beadings in Indonesia? Sudan? 7/7, 9/11, Madrid? Communal violence in Iraq? The riots last week in Yemen (or Oman, can't remember). Camon. Get real. The koran very clearly calls muslims to violence.
For proof of a media cover up, you can look at the Utah shooter. Very clearly, it was an act of jihad. The media asserts it was not. They even go so far as to deny what he was shouting, even though it was clear in the videos. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: |
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This flyer is being passed around the projects in France.
http://www.occidentalis.com/denis/POLICE_NATIONALE.jpg
The translation:
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"They Only Stop Troublemakers!"
Under the hat it reads:
"Deliberately led into traps, forced to bow before youths still holding a Molotov cocktail in their hands (knowing that this low life will be set free the next day), forced to watch youths break windows in the name of Allah, and then being accused of 'brutality' because of a simple ID verification..."
Followed by:
Support Your National Police
before the inevitable civil war and before... that! |
The "inevitable civil war". |
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