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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: We want the Taliban back, say ordinary Afghans |
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We want the Taliban back, say ordinary Afghans
At least we felt safe under the extremists, say Kandahar residents too afraid to go out after dark
By Chris Sands in Kandahar
Published: 08 April 2007
Faiz Mohammed Karigar, a father of two, fled Kandahar when the Taliban held power in Afghanistan because he was against their restrictions on education. Now he wants the fundamentalists back.
"When the Taliban were here, I escaped to the border with Iran, but I was never worried about my family," he said. "Every single minute of the last three years I have been very worried. Maybe tonight the Americans will come to my house, molest my wife and children and arrest me."
At least we felt safe under the extremists, say Kandahar residents too afraid to go out after dark
By Chris Sands in Kandahar
Published: 08 April 2007
Faiz Mohammed Karigar, a father of two, fled Kandahar when the Taliban held power in Afghanistan because he was against their restrictions on education. Now he wants the fundamentalists back.
"When the Taliban were here, I escaped to the border with Iran, but I was never worried about my family," he said. "Every single minute of the last three years I have been very worried. Maybe tonight the Americans will come to my house, molest my wife and children and arrest me."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2432448.ece
[Maybe what will happen is Kandahar can have the Taliban rule in their areas and Kabul ruled by Karzai's allies and some other areas. It seems like that is what will happen.] |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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A deceptive headline. Fact is that only 5% of Afghans support the Taliban.
"We prefer to be safe slaves than live in freedom and uncertainty" would sum up the opiniion presented here. how pathetic.
Its a normal problem in countries undergoing transition. At first they baulk at the uncertainty. Decades later they are grateful they made the change. Look at Russia now. Took a while, but its shaped up pretty nice since it shed communism. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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A deceptive headline. Fact is that only 5% of Afghans support the Taliban.
"We prefer to be safe slaves than live in freedom and uncertainty" would sum up the opiniion presented here. how pathetic.
Its a normal problem in countries undergoing transition. At first they baulk at the uncertainty. Decades later they are grateful they made the change. Look at Russia now. Took a while, but its shaped up pretty nice since it shed communism. |
I really wish you would think before you write. You are wrong on both counts and especially the later which indicates a very uninformed opinion on slavic current events. I won't walk you through it. Go to the link below. I've followed all this quite closely. As for Afghanistan (and now the same case in Somalia, where millions live scared every day - all because of the West's fear of gov't by the people, for the people) where do you get the 5% figure, what recess of your imagination???????
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Public opinion is tracking political developments in Russia. Russians have been considerably less enthusiastic about democracy in recent years than they were in the early 1990s. Today, unlike then, when public cries for freedom were leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union, a majority believes that their country would be better served by a strong leader rather than a democratic government. And the latest Pew Global Attitudes poll finds the Russian people would choose a strong economy over a good democracy by a margin of almost six to one.
These findings can only add to Western concerns that, under the government of President Vladimir Putin, democracy is in retreat in Russia. Recent passage of a law clamping down on foreign nongovernmental organizations and foundations operating in Russia and the resignation of a top economic adviser to Putin, Andrei Illarionov, who had earlier charged that Russia "is no longer a democratic country," have focused world atttention on the propspects for democracy there.
The climate of opinion was different in the fall of 1991, the Russians were discarding communism and hoped for a democratic future. The landmark 1991 Pulse of Europe survey, conducted by the Times Mirror Center (the predecessor of the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press), revealed a Russia ready to join the wave of democratization that had swept across Eastern Europe over the previous two years.
Today, however, nearly a decade and a half since the Soviet Union's collapse and six years into the Putin era, many Russians are disillusioned. In 1991, by a 51%-39% margin, Russians believed their country should rely on a democratic government rather than a strong leader to solve the country's problems. By 2002, the share choosing democratic government had fallen to 21%. Although it has since risen slightly, confidence remains low, with only 28% of Russians in our 2005 survey saying the country's problems can best be solved by democracy. |
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=250
DD |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
A deceptive headline. Fact is that only 5% of Afghans support the Taliban.
"We prefer to be safe slaves than live in freedom and uncertainty" would sum up the opiniion presented here. how pathetic.
Its a normal problem in countries undergoing transition. At first they baulk at the uncertainty. Decades later they are grateful they made the change. Look at Russia now. Took a while, but its shaped up pretty nice since it shed communism. |
In certain areas like Kandahar they may want the Taliban. They would rather have them than live in insecurity. The case may be different in Kabul, the capitol, where there are so many NATO troops. It is hard to secure all of Afghanistan and keep the Taliban completely out. There is also the risk of alienating the civilian population.
Russia and Afghanistan are extremely different. Russia has had a longer history of capitalism than communism. The Taliban are a very religious group, many Afghans are very religious as well. Also, in Russia, the state was intact. The Russian government was enforcing the changes.
There is no strong Afghan government to speak of to enforce a more liberal regime throughout the country. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Russia has had a longer history of capitalism than communism. |
Really? I wouldn't really call pre-revolution serfdom 'capitalism', and in any case there was about a 70 year interregnum. It's not like the Russians could just get back in that ol' capitalist groove. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ddeubel"]
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| where do you get the 5% figure, what recess of your imagination??????? |
From the link, you tool!
Hahaha..just shows that you didn't even bother to read the report posted by the OP.
Here it is again:
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| "Most polling data shows only about 5 per cent of the people actually support the Taliban extremists," |
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2432448.ece |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Junior,
I read the article and my question (to put it so that someone such as yourself without a thinking bone in his body can understand) was, how could anyone ever even consider believing that 5% figure? Seeing it was from the Nato led force, two, that is used the term "Taliban EXTREMISTS" which indicated the most virulent and psychopathic form, three, it refers to no study, nada, nothing and just gets it from thin air, AND four, when the article directly after states that hard polling data and not just conjecture reveals that,
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| a recent poll of several thousand men in Kandahar and Helmand by the Senlis Council, a Brussels-based thinktank, found that Taliban support among civilians had jumped to nearly 27 per cent. Only 19 per cent in the two provinces felt that international troops were helping them personally. |
Once again, don't just shout and scream in such generalized a fashion, believing what you think as right. It isn't.
Fact of the matter, a rule of thumb for all intelligent governments should be that you can't kill an insurgency from outside. It has to be done from within. Chopping off an arm does nothing against a virus. Afghanistan is another example where we should have let them "heal themselves"..
DD
DD |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| the term "Taliban EXTREMISTS" which indicated the most virulent and psychopathic form |
"Excuse me, could you tell me where to find the liberal taliban? You know, the majority branch of them that allow women to walk in 40 degree heat without a tent over their heads. the easygoing ones that don't like sharia law and believe in equality and eductaion?
Oh yeah- they're over there smoking blow under the tree."
Dude, even the "moderate" taliban still believe in beheading a woman for the crime of being raped. There are no liberal taliban, their belief system is a rigid blanket philosophy that keeps everyone in the stone age. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| the term "Taliban EXTREMISTS" which indicated the most virulent and psychopathic form |
"Excuse me, could you tell me where to find the liberal taliban? You know, the majority branch of them that allow women to walk in 40 degree heat without a tent over their heads. the easygoing ones that don't like sharia law and believe in equality and eductaion?
Oh yeah- they're over there smoking blow under the tree."
Dude, even the "moderate" taliban still believe in beheading a woman for the crime of being raped. There are no liberal taliban, their belief system is a rigid blanket philosophy that keeps everyone in the stone age. |
Forget it, DD wouldn't know a Pashtun from an Uzbek from a Tajik. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Ah, I see the Taliban of Dave's is out in force. Seeing everything in black. Evil and let's punish and condemn and kill 'em all. Forget self determination, we know the light and way.....
Kuros, stick to your video games and the Wizards and warriors. I know all I need to know about central Asia, enough to know there isn't much difference between Karimov and Rahmonv. Just like the taliban they rule by edict and decree. Still they are very cozy with America.......that's all I need to know at the moment.
DD |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Kuros, stick to your video games and the Wizards and warriors. I know all I need to know about central Asia, enough to know there isn't much difference between Karimov and Rahmonv. Just like the taliban they rule by edict and decree. Still they are very cozy with America.......that's all I need to know at the moment.
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Very honest of you to admit you know little about the tribes in Taliban. I have to inform you you know little about what I do in my own time, as well. My primary waste of time is dedicated this board, I assure you.
What is surprising is how ill-informed you are of Karimov's break with Washington.
Here, too.
That's not to say that the US doesn't ever deal with dictators in that region or any other. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Russia has had a longer history of capitalism than communism. |
Really? I wouldn't really call pre-revolution serfdom 'capitalism', and in any case there was about a 70 year interregnum. It's not like the Russians could just get back in that ol' capitalist groove. |
I think there weren't any serfs after 1861. It was abolished 56 years before the revolution. I was saying there was a historical memory of something having existed before communism. Afghanistan has always had a conservative, religious order of some nature, and it has been difficult to deal with. I was not trying to make it seem the adjustment towards capitalism has been easy for Russia. I did study Russia's politics and history, but they are Europeans, their European neighbhours had capitalism, and Russia was gradually moving towards change. It did so under Krushev to some extent, the Russians as an ethnic group hold Russia together. Afghanistan has little going for it to have a whole country against the Taliban. So, basically, a comparison with Russia is a poor one.
I was saying that many Pashtuns may welcome Taleban control in their areas. I was not saying the same about the Tajiks, Uzbeks, and northern Pashtuns. The Taleban have to be dealt with, and it might not be militarily since a two front war is being fought with one in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Kuros,
I posted about this months ago and with a very good video. Seems you were too engrossed in your video games to comment... here is the link of this video again. Please read the accompaning articles. They might give you insight beyond what is a Tajik and a Pastun....
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=18453&prog=zru
Parade all you want about some "break". Not happening and your info. is as old and inconclusive as the hills. Check the dates.
There is still lots of cooperation and especially through his emissary, crown prince of the U.S. subcontinent Mussaraf. I would also wonder what sanctions the U.S. govt is imposing??? Oh none! wonder if Gulina can still travel to N.Y. for her soirees. I bet your bottom dollar she does....
Fact is, more U.S. dollars and not just govt aid, rolls in to this country. Despite Andijan and despite so much information of the "torturing' dictator. (and how does a man such as Bush shake a guys hand who it is known, has personally ordered men boiled to death???). The only "break" is the spin of the U.S., they are still very much sleeping together - they are just trying to make a deal with the paparazzi.
This was the only truth you stated,
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| That's not to say that the US doesn't ever deal with dictators in that region or any other. |
out the side of your mouth....
Oh my gosh.
My indignity you've earned.
And more about the current situation and not 2005
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EurasiaNet: Have you seen a change in US attitudes or rhetoric on the Uzbek human rights situation since September 11 and the subsequent intensification of US-Uzbekistan cooperation?
Struthers: Obviously the region has taken on a strategic importance - and Uzbekistan in particular - that it never enjoyed prior to September 11th. Because Uzbekistan, out of the blue, became strategic, a very strategically important partner for the US. It granted the US use of one of its military bases in the south and also opened the bridge crossing from Termez to Khayraton, which has been closed for several years since the ascent of the Taliban into Northern Afghanistan in '97-'98.
In return for this cooperation and collaboration, the US has granted at least 160 million dollars in security credits ranging from health care to education to civic society building. We can say at this time that the US has thankfully not changed its rhetoric on the very poor human rights situation in Uzbekistan, and this is belied and supported by the critical language contained in the [State Department's 2001 Human Rights] report; however, we cannot say that there has been a significant sea change in the human rights situation in Uzbekistan - in fact it's remained by and large the same. [For background see the EurasiaNet Human Rights archive.] |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Now I appreciate you quoting from your link, DD. I wouldn't want to actually have to go there and get god-knows-what stained on my computer.
Once again, you prevail, DD. I seem to remember you bested me before defending the legitimacy of Chavez's election. Bravissimo.
And while I'll admit that Karimov is beyond the pale and quite disgusting, the price of getting anything done in international politics is dealing with dictators. I'm sure when you think about this (or even rather if you don't) you'll agree with this principle at some point. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Humans don't care who's in charge, what form of government they have, and what strangers are getting killed for it.
They want food on the table and a roof over their heads. Democracy is an historical aberration, not a norm. I seriously doubt we'll continue to see it within the next 300 years |
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